Reduced 2016-AT-03: Staff and John Smith

Introduction

I am an advocate, filing an appeal on the behalf of @John Smith.

On December 23rd, 2015, LordSquishy banned John Smith for two years, theoretically over the Legend of the Illuminatist Madoka (LotIM) quest, under Rule 2 which prohibits hateful content or advocacy of violence. He also locked its thread. Because of the holidays, we were granted an extension to file our appeal until January 2nd, 2016.

This quest had been running for a little more than two months; though it was still in its early stages when locked, it was at the time quite bleak in outlook. LordSquishy has declined to cite any specific posts from it as definitively violating. There was one post, a chapter revisiting the historical murder of the Romanov dynasty, which was cited as borderline but still OK; it can be found here.

On the other hand, LordSquishy has been very clear about pointing out one thing that is indeed actually violating: a post from 2014 which was already infracted a year and a half ago, and is not in any way related to LotIM except insofar as it was posted by the same author. It reads as follows:

It was apparently deleted from Sufficient Velocity; unless staff members have access to a copy of it, it cannot be viewed on SV in its original context.

This infraction was handed down under Rule 2, which reads:

We believe that it cannot be supported by an ordinary, diligent reading of the Compact that any part of LotIM itself violates Rule 2. While we concede that John Smith's August 2014 post violates Rule 2, we believe that three years' ban for it is substantially excessive under the circumstances.

Legend of the Illuminatist Madoka Does Not Violate Rule 2 On Its Own

LordSquishy, in communications with John Smith, claimed to be looking at three elements of the quest in order to decide whether it merited infraction: its content, its tone, and its motivation. However, he explicitly states that the content or the tone are not enough, on their own, to justify an infraction for LotIM. As he pointed out, even fiction as wholesome as Star Wars destroys planets; bad things often happen to fictional characters in nearly any story you might care to name.

Instead of on tone or content – indeed, any part of LotIM itself – LordSquishy believes that the infraction stands on John Smith's "motivation" for writing the story. He believes that LotIM is intended to advocate for violence or hate, even though the actual events of the quest are not so hateful as to violate Rule 2. And he can't find any evidence of this nefarious motivation in the quest itself.

This Infraction Stands Entirely On A Statement Already Infracted

LordSquishy bases his theory about John Smith's "motivation" for the quest on something John Smith wrote in the summer of 2014, about a year and a half ago. We are not disputing that this particular quote is worthy of infraction. However, it was already infracted. John Smith was banned for a year over it, ending last summer. And it has absolutely nothing to do with LotIM except that it was written by the same author.

LotIM Shouldn't Be Tarred By An Old Quote Out Of Context

It's not right to assume that this old statement accurately reflects John Smith's motivations for writing LotIM, even if it does appear vaguely applicable.

Yes, LotIM is a Madoka quest, and it is sometimes dark; the quote could conceivably apply. But Madoka is a dark universe, and it often seems as though Orwell's boot of despair is pressing upon the characters in it. If we were to pretend that Firnagzen or AnonymousRabbit or some other prominent Madoka fic author had said this, it would be easy to see how the misattributed quote had "motivated" their fics, too. Indeed, there's scarcely any Madoka fiction, fan or even canon, that this statement couldn't apply to.

If all of John Smith's fic can be tarred with this same pre-infracted brush, there's very little that he can do to avoid it, short of leaving Puella Magi Madoka Magica altogether.

We don't believe it's reasonable, fair, or supported by an ordinary and diligent reading of the Community Compact, that one bad statement thrown out in the heat of argument a year and a half ago should cast a sufficient shadow to render otherwise rule-abiding fiction violating. Rule 2 demands that a work itself be hateful or advocate violence; an unrelated post from a year and a half prior is no basis at all on which to make such a claim.

Conclusion

It's universally agreed by both us and LordSquishy (who handed down the infraction) that no content in Legend of the Illuminatist Madoka is violating on its own. However, the moderators believe that all of LotIM can be tarred with an old quote taken out of context, transforming otherwise non-violating fiction into something deserving of a two-year-long ban. This isn't reasonable, fair, or supported by an ordinary and diligent reading of the Community Compact.

We believe that this infraction can stand only on John Smith's previously-infracted post from August 2014, and that the subsequent quest does not in any way contribute to the infraction. Since this 2014 post was already infracted, we believe that infracting it again for an additional two-year ban is substantially excessive under the circumstances; even one year for a single post is exceedingly severe, and three is unheard of. We ask that you overturn this new infraction, reducing the punishment to the single year John Smith already spent banned, and unlock the LotIM thread, which contains no violating material.

 

I apologize if this is out of turn (although I am not aware of any rules on this prior to Tribunal), but I've been uncertain on whether a paragraph is necessary in this appeal; I've already added and then removed it. (I believe that moderators can see post edit histories, so you should be able to find a record of this if you want to.) I've decided to add it again, but since it's been a while I'll make a special note of it:

(regarding the content of LotIM)

It is also worth pointing out that LotIM is incomplete. Yes, a lot of things are going wrong in the first arc; however, the quest has only existed for a little more than two months, which is not especially long for a quest. Though the message so far does not appear particularly uplifting, that's not surprising considering that it has only just begun; while the story of Noah's Ark is bleak at its best, it would seem outright nihilistic if it were cut off before the floodwaters receded. John Smith tells me, and there is no reason to disbelieve him or evidence to disprove him, that things will get better. Indeed, there's a significant amount of planning for LotIM that we can go into if that's necessary. The way the content or tone look now is not remotely the way it will look in a few months.

 

@John Smith would prefer to take this to Tribunal.

Would it be possible to have slightly more time to come up with a Tribunal argument, though? I work during the week, and I'm fairly busy aside from that, so I'd appreciate it if I were able to wait until next weekend to submit that.

 

I'm aware. Sorry, but Tribunal arguments take me a while. I have 1400 words right now, although I hope to edit a lot of that back down again; I'm planning to finish the first draft before dinner, and then post the second draft after John Smith has had a chance to look at it.

 

Introduction

I am an advocate, filing an appeal on the behalf of @John Smith regarding the Legend of the Illuminatist Madoka (LotIM) quest. LordSquishy locked its thread and banned John Smith for two years, over alleged Rule 2 violations for hateful content. 100thlurker subsequently reduced the ban to a subforum ban from Quests and User Fiction only. John Smith and I are appealing to have the threads unlocked and the ban entirely overturned.

LordSquishy and the staff are still, almost a month into the appeals process, unable to point to any part of LotIM that is definitively violating. Instead, he and 100thlurker cite an intangible "narrative" in which bad people are congratulated for their misdeeds. There are indeed bad people in LotIM, and they do congratulate each other on their misdeeds – but the staff seems to have missed that these are the villains. Far from the celebrated heroes of the work, the Illuminati are roundly bashed any time anybody else has the point of view. The staff alleges that the message of LotIM is one of support for atrocities – but, in fact, it is quite the opposite.

While LotIM is plainly non-violating, special attention must be given to how incredibly excessive LordSquishy's proposed punishments are. Far from the scofflaw LordSquishy describes, John Smith is an user with zero unexpired infraction points and a history of improvement. Giving two years out of the blue to someone like that is frankly ridiculous.

LotIM Does Not Contain Hateful Content Under Rule 2
Not All Of The Staff's Allegations Are Correct

I need to point out one particular claim LordSquishy made. He alleges that, in LotIM, girls are "raped in concentration camps." This simply doesn't appear in LotIM, and John Smith and I are frankly mystified as to where LordSquishy got the idea that it did. We would appreciate it if LordSquishy could either provide a citation or withdraw the claim.

Rule 2 Sets A High Bar For Fiction

The staff has argued that Rule 2 must be read as broadly as possible, that it is a sweeping rule that makes no exceptions for fiction or art. To do so, they have focused primarily on the first line of Rule Two:

They have generally ignored the last line:

Contrary to the staff's claims of vagueness, for fictional and historical people (like everyone featured in LotIM) Rule 2 is quite specific. To fail Rule 2, fiction must be hateful or advocate harassment or violence, and be unnecessarily tasteless or unnecessarily offensive. Moreover, the rule explicitly states that it is "relaxed" in circumstances exactly like those in this case.

We believe that the broad and expansive scope that the staff claims for Rule 2 cannot be supported by an ordinary, diligent reading of the Community Compact in this case, or in any case regarding fiction or historical fiction.

Compared To Other Fiction, LotIM Is Not Especially Dark

Perhaps the most natural piece of fiction to compare LotIM to is Puella Magi Madoka Magica, the anime it is based on. I imagine that most of the Council is familiar with it. Those of you who are will know that it is in fact a dark and distressing work, and that even things that LordSquishy cited as harmless – that young girls "might make bad wishes," as Squishy said derisively – can in fact be quite terrifying. Madoka abuses and mistreats its characters in disturbing ways, more so than LotIM's arms-length view allows for. And yet Madoka's death toll is still significantly larger than LotIM's. (invisible spoiler) In Madoka, the title character destroys the world at least twice. The last time this happens, the viewer is invited to watch from a vantage point in outer space as the surface of the earth is devastated; the protagonist's voice is heard giggling amidst the destruction. Yes, Madoka does become hopeful in its ending – but LordSquishy proposes denying LotIM not only its ending but its middle.

LotIM also draws from the broader corpus of Illuminati fiction. The Illuminati, long the subject of conspiracy theories, are generally depicted as an evil conspiracy out to shape the world according to its secret plan. In fiction, they are frequently found committing atrocities in service of their master plan. LordSquishy considered the idea that the Illuminati secretly orchestrated the murder of the Romanov dynasty to be shocking and beyond the pale, but in fact this sort of thing is practically obligatory in Illuminati fiction – the idea that they were secretly responsible for some world calamity is spread far and wide through the genre. Indeed, the murder of the Romanov dynasty is comparatively mild, given the sorts of things the Illuminati gets up to in other works. For a familiar example, consider Deus Ex, the classic videogame, in which the opening cutscene deals with an Illuminati splinter organization's plot to extort the world with a bioengineered plague and its antidote.

There simply isn't any exceptional content in LotIM, from the perspective of Rule 2. Its content is in line with the works it is based on, works with thriving fanbases and broad support on Sufficient Velocity. It can't be supported by an ordinary and diligent reading of the Community Compact that the frankly rather tame events of the story violate Rule 2 as it is relaxed for fiction.

LotIM Does Not Advocate For Its Villains' World View
LotIM's Tone And Seeming "Motivation" Are A Result Of Its Villainous Point Of View

It's already been established that LotIM is not particularly dark, especially compared to its source works. However, the staff alleges that it is "openly supportive of what can only be described as atavistic interest in regular atrocity and voyeuristic pleasure in general misery" – in plain English, they object to LotIM not because of its content alone, but because they feel that the quest seeks to encourage or promote the darker aspects of that content.

This is, of course, not true. Instead, LordSquishy and 100thlurker appear to have become confused by a standard literary device: Legend of the Illuminatist Madoka is currently shown from the perspective of its villains.

The Illuminati appear in many works of fiction. They are almost always on the side of evil, and LotIM is not an exception. Yes, the Illuminati themselves believe they are doing the right thing. Of course they do. A world where the villains all know they're villains and never seek to justify their actions would be almost cartoonishly simplistic, and the idea that the rules would demand this out of fiction is shocking.

While LotIM generally tries to be subtle, it's certainly poked some fun at this before. Side Story #089 is a rather blatant sendup of another work with villain protagonists – this one, a famous comedy sketch.

When LotIM Adopts Other Points Of View, The Illuminati Are The Obvious Villains

As an example, let's take a chapter LordSquishy has referred to as especially vile: Side Story #039, dealing with the historical murder of the Romanov dynasty. While the murders happened in the real world, in the universe of LotIM they were committed by the Illuminati in order to prevent their young daughters from potentially making a wish to bring back the monarchy. LordSquishy read that chapter and was shocked by how vile the Illuminati were; a significant part of his argument to the Magistrate focused on that vileness. I imagine that most readers would be shocked in much the same way. Yet, somehow, it didn't occur to him that this was the intended reaction.

Unlike most of LotIM, the chapter trades off between the point of view of various Illuminati members, and the point of view of one of their innocent victims, Anastasia Romanov. And, yes, there is quite a lot of bragging in the former point of view, a lot of Illuminati Tough Guy-ing about how it was all necessary. From Anastasia's point of view, however, it is blindingly obvious that they are all deluded. Anastasia is a young girl, and shockingly mature; despite her family having been deposed and then arrested by the Communists, she still has a nuanced and merciful understanding of their motivations, and does not want them hurt. This hope is betrayed when those Communists murder her. But, even then, she does not wish for revenge or for the restoration of the monarchy. Had she not been murdered, she would have wished simply to live.

There is no way to read the chapter LordSquishy and I cited and come out rooting for the Illuminati. It certainly didn't have that effect on LordSquishy. Yet, somehow, he presumed that it was meant to be read exactly the opposite from the way he himself read it, and from the way any reasonable human being would read it. 100thlurker claims that "whatever eventual thematic turnaround John Smith claims to have planned is immaterial as it is nowhere foreshadowed or indicated by subtext." This is absurd. Evidence of authorial intent abounds, and it's nowhere easier to see than in the way LordSquishy and 100thlurker themselves reacted to the chapter.

While I'd hate to make this argument any longer than it already is, I must point out that this isn't the only side story with this dynamic. Side Story #046 and Side Story #048 are very similar in their indictments of the Illuminati from the point of view of a normal person.

The Primary Point of View of LotIM Will Change In The Future

I believe it's worth noting that the Illuminati will not remain the point of view for LotIM forever. At some point, the point of view will switch to a different character, a girl like Anastasia Romanov, another of the Illuminati's innocent victims. There the point of view will stay until the end of the series, as the Illuminati's mess is cleaned up.

LotIM Should Not Be Judged By The Ideals Of Its Villains

LordSquishy has a lot to say on how to handle works with villain protagonists like LotIM. Indeed, in his first argument he actually calls out the specific technique in use – "conveying through dedication to a specific cause that the cause is problematic" – as acceptable on Sufficient Velocity.

It is not supported by an ordinary and diligent reading of the Compact – to say nothing of the things LordSquishy has said – that a work's hatefulness under Rule 2 should be judged by the ideals of villains it is clearly dedicated to discrediting, even if they are the point of view characters.

These Allegations Ignore John Smith's Past Year
The Staff Are Unable To Look Past John Smith's Older Work

A year and a half ago, John Smith posted another piece of fanfiction, this one named Sid Meier's Puella Duces Civ V Magica. We agree that it was in violation of the rules. John Smith has admitted that the series was intended to troll, both privately and in public, and he has in fact apologized for it. But that piece of fiction was infracted long ago; his ban ended more than a year previous. By the time LotIM was first posted, even the infraction points had expired.

Put simply, it's time for the staff to let Puella Duces go. The fact that John Smith has had problems in the past does not mean that every new work of fiction he writes must be subjected to the least charitable possible reading. LotIM practically bonks the reader over the head with the knowledge that the Illuminati are bad people with unconscionable methods. But, because it's rarely explicitly stated and usually left implicit, LordSquishy and 100thlurker seek to shove that under the rug, in favor of rehashing their opinions of Puella Duces. This isn't reasonable or fair.

John Smith Has Successfully Changed His Behavior In The Past

The staff argues that LotIM is a continuation of a pattern that started with Sid Meier's Puella Duces Civ V Magica. We agree that this work was indeed violating, and was correctly infracted a year and a half ago. However, there's something you should notice about Puella Duces' violations: they are not at all subtle. In fact, Puella Duces even contains a thesis statement of awfulness which LordSquishy has so helpfully cited for us already. If someone were to ask for examples of its violating content, they would not at all be hard to find.

Although the staff claims that LotIM is just as violating as Puella Duces, the fact that they were unable to point to a single specific violating thing within LoTIM would certainly indicate that LotIM must necessarily be much closer to the line than Puella Duces was, and that the flagrant and unsubtle rule violation has ended. Even if you do still for some reason think that LotIM is violating, surely you can agree that there is significant improvement between the two series.

Whatever your decision, you should predicate it on the fact that John Smith has acknowledged his past misbehavior and improved on it tremendously.

LordSquishy's Proposed Punishment Is Incredibly Excessive

Though of course the staff's allegations are incorrect and Legend of the Illuminatist Madoka is entirely non-violating, it is worth pointing out that LordSquishy's proposed punishment would not be appropriate even if the staff's allegations actually were true.

LordSquishy claims that John Smith's "main presence on Sufficient Velocity was to write and present stories that are against the rules." As 100thlurker observes, this is exactly the situation for which subforum bans are intended. If an user is irresponsible in one area of the forum, but has not exhibited misbehavior elsewhere, a subforum ban is the most appropriate tool for correcting the problem, and a total forum ban would be substantially excessive under the circumstances.

In his argument, LordSquishy seeks to beat around the bush a little bit, pontificating on the nature of being banned, on the pros and cons of due process, and on the principles behind their decisionmaking. But, ultimately, it's all for nothing; the world LordSquishy describes, in which LotIM is Illuminati propaganda, John Smith is running rampant, and the moderators would be overwhelmed if decisive action were not taken now, is almost completely unlike the case in front of you.

John Smith has no unexpired infraction points. I wouldn't want to get sidetracked by the nature of a repeat offender, wherein John Smith's reputation on its own is enough to reasonably suspect misbehavior, but I'd like to imagine that it involves repeat offenses – that is to say, more than the one offense John Smith has ever before committed. Similarly, though there may come a point where an user is too taxing for the moderators to handle, I would hope that this point is farther out than the two times John Smith has ever come to their attention. Far from representing an escalating pattern of abuses, LotIM is certainly no Puella Duces; it's hard to call it anything but a significant improvement.

It is substantially excessive under the circumstances to escalate immediately to any form of discipline lasting two years, whether a whole-site ban or a subforum ban, for a poster with no unexpired infraction points, only one prior offense, and a strong history of past improvement after discipline.

(Fun fact: founded in April 2014, Sufficient Velocity has not actually existed for two years. Keep that in mind when considering how severe of a punishment this is.)

Conclusion

Legend of the Illuminatist Madoka is a story about a conspiracy going vastly too far. But, even as the world burns down around its villain protagonists, the staff is unwilling to recognize that the purpose of LotIM isn't to celebrate the fire. The text of LotIM is clear: these men are villains, and what they do is not okay. Instead of recognizing that, however, the staff seeks to flash back to John Smith's 2014 infraction, even though he changed his ways long ago.

Nothing about LotIM violates Rule 2, and nothing about John Smith suggests that drastic action must be taken to stop him. This entire infraction process represents an incredible overreaction to a quest and to an author that are entirely innocuous if you don't come to them with preconceived images of calamity.

Since this punishment cannot be supported by an ordinary and diligent reading of the Community Compact, we ask that John Smith's ban be overturned, and the two threads associated with Legend of the Illuminatist Madoka be unlocked.

 

From the looks of things, it sounds like I'm going to have to read the work in question...

 

I think I can clear this up myself, having read the work in question.

In Sidestory#54 Your friendly neighbourhood jackbooted thug we have a baker remarking on

when speaking with the guards of what are, in all forms and aspects, Concentration Camps.

Concentration camps for young girls in prebuscent age upwards. Now, the Advocate might make all the claims he wishes that John Smith's past has no bearing within this tribunal, but considering his 'Destroy Madoka' essay, I find myself quite firmly of the belief that the implied meaning is pretty much as intended.

Course, one might think it's a flimsy thing, but we have Sidestory#51 which came before...

In Sidestory#51 Suka Blyat Idi Nahui we have the following:

Of course, Sidestory#54 happens in America and Sidestory#51 happens in Siberia, so normally one wouldn't think they are connected, but the Author of this 'wonderful' Quest is the same. I admit, there is one thing John Smith did in his quest that shows improvement.

He made it all appear subtle.

When a random user says 'bad things happened to X', we can all think it's about rocks falling, a wound, hurt. When someone with a history of writing a rape-fic says 'bad things happened to X', we all know what he is implying.

I have to applaud the criminal mastermind that went behind this quest, because I have honestly never seen such wonders of manipulation both in voting, and in shifting goalposts.

Convincing the firm opponents of the Illuminati Theory required singular checks that were of laudable ease to pass, and even failure guaranteed at least a second chance, or still a success of sorts (Ends up as Darth Vader after failing a check that should have meant immediate death and vaporization? Oh who would have guessed!). The parts that involved Illuminati fan-gushing could easily reach in the thousands of words, but the core of the gameplay pieces had nice one-liners, perhaps two-liners, as if to enunciate the clear propaganda-like status of the Quest itself.

Finally, the format of the 'piece' itself. Had he wished to show a deconstruction of the Illuminati Fanwank in such a setting, he would have done it better with a narrative rather than a contrived way of using low-passing checks, trying to shift the blame of the actions on the voters themselves.

If the Quest itself had been about showing not the 'fire' but the 'evil of the Illuminati', then by all means, please explain why a singular successful check turns an Air Field Marshall from being completely against the plot to outright sleeping with the 'protagonist' of the quest himself.

'Token resistance' is no resistance at all.

And do not think I have not noticed the incredible amount of care that went into beautifying the 'world rolls' by hiding the fact that starving prebuscent girls contracted with Kyubey and were then 'brought under control'. How? Never mentioned, but we all know it involved murder.
Side Story #074 - Sinking

I know from the knowledge of the Anime itself that a Soul Gem can only be kept nearby the body of the girl in question, otherwise they fall into a catatonic state. The girl is screaming her last breath within a cell, which all but implies how the Hydraulic Presses that have activated are near her. You can weasel out of it, of course, you can claim there is a valid reason that does not involve the slow turning to paste of a living, breathing human being in order to 'crack' both the Soul Gem and the body of the girl in order to prevent Witching, but there is no way you can make me -or anyone else who read through the Quest carefully- believe this is nothing more than a blatantly well-though sociopath-like attempt at 'murdering young girls'.

The reason this wasn't brought to anyone's attention sooner was because, due to how horrifyingly bad it was, people dropped the quest before it could reach the second page. The vast majority of voting afterwards is left to three-to-four hardcore voters, and even that was not enough to make the quest stop.

It is blatantly clear that John Smith had a story he wanted to tell, but rather than use narrative, he wanted the voters in order to pin the blame of what happened on them.

But hey, let's think for a moment about how some single sentences can be utterly horrifying.

SHERMAN - CURFEWS ON RURAL FORMER US POPULATION WORKING GENERALLY WELL. US MILITARY BEING REORGANIZED, RESISTANT OFFICERS BEING PURGED. GATHERING CHEMICAL WEAPONS TO SUPPRESS MILITIAS.
And before you claim the 'chemical weapons' are anything other than the lethal variant, next World Update has: Sherman - ESTIMATE 85% OF MINUTEMEN DEAD. PREVENTING "MAD MAX" NONSENSE FROM HAPPENING PRETTY WELL.
MEXICA - CLONE* LOST ITS HEAD, TRIED TO SHOOT UP LAB, CURRENTLY UNDER CONTROL. *Clone of a young girl
AMAZONIUS - LIQUIDATION GOING NICELY. MOST HAVE BEEN INCARCERATED OR SHOT. CAN'T HELP YOU, STILL HAVE A LOT ON MY HANDS.

Forgive me for being so blunt, but if the mass genocide of most of the world population and the camp labor conditions of minors is not a flat-out hateful advocating of violence upon minors of the female sex, then I am at a loss. Historical people has the rule relaxed because of history, and fictional people have the rule relaxed if there is enough justification for it. Justification, even then, must pass through a set of varying lenses that go from the general care taken into avoiding making it squicky all the way to the way it was 'drawn' within a manga.

Like, in 'Akame Ga Kill' the first death of the series is a minor, a young girl is killed by the protagonist because she's a psychopath who enjoys torturing/skinning/infecting with violent diseases countryside folks coming to the city for help.

That would enter the rule 2 and be justified.

Minors dying from starvation and seeking help and being turned to paste into hydraulic presses definitely does not.

And making the example with the Canon World being 'devastated' is no diminishing of guilt, but actually an increase of it. In the anime itself, there is no showing of actual people being burned, murdered, their screams of death are not heard. Mami's head is chewed on by a Witch, but even then the senseless carnage and attribution of deaths are always depicted in a somber manner. And definitely not as a mere 'NORMIES GET OUT, YOU HALF-BIT MY TENDIES SINCE YOU ARE STARVING'.

Definitely not in a sort of megalomaniacal ego-trip. Trying to claim it was due to the 'Pov' of the protagonist merely alters nothing when you take into account how easily those of opposite views are treated.

Understand this: it is meaningless to claim 'I wanted to depict this as a Deconstruction!' when you make it into a Quest Format and then willfully lower the DC checks to convince other people you were right, or give Buffs to your own 'Charisma' ability in order to pass them with ease.

It was an intended result.

It was a product of cunning, and I do give praise for how it was written with the 'show not-show' act in an effort to let the ideas seep through without actually putting them down on paper. Perhaps a future in politics might be the best, but honestly speaking? In all honesty, truly, there is no defense that can be levied.

Not against this.

Let me reiterate one last time:

If he had wished to write a deconstruction of Illuminati theories and through a Villain's protagonist scheme, then he had no need for a Quest format. He willfully chose so in order to protect his hide from the skinning that would have happened without a doubt, if not immediately, upon the marvelous plan of 'galactic conquest' which involved the use of super-weapons designed to detonate entire planets.

Entire planets filled with a warring empire of female-warriors who, of course, conquered and made other nations submit and were perfectly usable as 'antagonistic forces'.

All the while definitely aiding in making his fetishistic desires of watching young girls burn, die and suffer be made not just real, but also 'authorized' under the guise of quest format.

So indeed, John Smith has improved.

He found the wriggle room, and wriggled within it.

Unfortunately for him, we do not have mere eyes, but also brains.

Unfortunately for him, I refuse to allow such a blatant act of outright madness to spread.

If he wants to write about murdering young girls, he is free to come up with his own innovative, original piece of fiction which depicts an evil all-female race of young girls that gets murdered for being depicted as cardboard two-dimensional villains.

However, he will not do so upon this forum.

[X] Permaban him

 

@BeaconHill, you have this compelling theory about how John Smith actually plans to make things right and the entire problem is that the staff jumped the gun, as it were, on punishing his story, when his plans would lead to the work, in its totality, not being hateful. If true, this would certainly make the staff action less justifiable. But do you have any reliable proof of this assertion?

I would like to see some proof as to this claim, something other than the appellant's say-so. Because if we go with just say-so being sufficient, nothing outside of an applicant directly admitting they're being hateful would be sufficient-and even that might not be enough. For fairly obvious reasons, I think this is a completely unreasonable stance to take.

 

I need time to read the work in question, but, I just wanted to congratulate @BeaconHill on a really well written appeal. I'm not yet convinced that the facts actually convincingly support your argument, but, on a technical level this is extremely well done. Much better than what most of my class managed in Moot Court. Truly nice job.

 

This is an impossible request. If an author's statement about their future work don't meet your standards of evidence, what possibly could?

 

I think that's kind of the point. I'm still working on my read through, but, I think one of the questions before us is "How far over the line can something go on mere promises that it'll eventually be about why everything over the line is bad."

A person could, for instance, write a story that's about a Nazi officer loosing faith in the regime and trying to kill Hitler. But a promise that that will happen is a little moot if there'll be three years of praising the Third Reich before the character's viewpoint changes.

 

The author has given us no reason that his statements of future intent are trustworthy.

In fact, given that the first thing he did after @100thlurker reduced his suspension was make another revenge thread against the Incubators, I would say that the author's statements are actively contradicted by current evidence.

Presumably if John Smith was actually declaring the Illuminati evil or even morally ambiguous there would be some hint of such after multiple months and dozens of pages. Instead as I recall, and @shadenight123 can confirm, the author has gone out of his way to make his quest voters choose options which declare the Illuminati correct.

If the author claims his work is Spec Ops; the Line, there's only so many civilians you can white phosphorous before one suspects that he's actually writing Hatred.

 

That's when you go "Sorry, but after XYZ, nothing's going to change my mind," rather than "Sorry, but until you come back with that three-headed unicorn, I'm afraid there's nothing I can do."

Anyway. I'll need to give this thing a read before I say more.

 

I don't think it's impossible for there to be some proof of John Smith's intentions, just unlikely. He could have had IRC conversations, or planning notes with timestamps on them, or simply an offhanded mention before the infraction that he was doing this, or even in the text itself, some indication that it wasn't hateful because the point was that the bad guys were evil and you should not like them.

I wanted to ask this because it's unlikely that Smith has the evidence desired, but if Smith has it I think it'd be hugely remiss to not give him a chance to show evidence.

 

Just to bring this up, but permaban or not is not the only answer. Keeping the reduction is also an option since the sin was writing something, I think, that certainly went places highly uncomfortable.

I cannot say I will be happy to do so... But I'll have to agree with Ralson that I'll have to check his work myself as well first.

 

Better specify it then. When I said 'Permaban Him' I meant by following through with the two years ban proposed as the starting punishment rather than merely a subforum ban.