1. Hey, Guest,

    Do you think you're halfway handy at making logo? If so, we want to hear from you. Please take a look at this thread to consider taking part in a design contest for our affiliated businesses.

    -The Directors

    Dismiss Notice

Armenia's Selective Abortions Threaten Demographic Catastrophe

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by incognito, Jan 10, 2017.

  1. The demographic balance in Armenia is under threat | Vestnik Kavkaza
    Man, every-time I think about how horrible things are in Eastern Europe i have to remind myself "hey, it could have been worse - you could have been born in the Caucasus" :p

    Anyway, this is, IMHO, the type of issue modern Western feminists should be tackling rather than fighting windmills (a.k.a: combating "manspreading" on public transport and whatnot). You've created a more-or-less egalitarian society in the West - now its time to "spread the revolution" to the backward, truly patriarchal cultural-social groups in the Caucasus, Middle East and Africa.
    • Picard Picard x 18
    • Like Like x 2
  2. Somebody

    Somebody Just Somebody

    They don't campaign there much, because it's genuinely difficult, up to and including men shooting any girl striving for gender equality in the head.

    Remember Malala? The Taliban headshot her for daring to go to school. Thankfully she survived and managed to be a living testament to their barbarity.

    Even if the feminists had the genuine moral courage to do it, there are still the massive language issues to consider. There are easily thousands of languages spoken in the areas mentioned. Or how a huge chunk of the inequality occurs in the countryside, widely spread out.
    • Like Like x 15
    • Hugs Hugs x 2
    • Insightful Insightful x 2
  3. Zap Rowsdower

    Zap Rowsdower Ex-cultist vagrant

    And more prosaically, there's the issue of the part-time activist. While there are some nonprofit groups and individuals funded by such devoting full time and energy to the cause such that they could build presence on the ground in such places as would necessary to enact change there... the majority of individuals interested in any given cause, including the individuals necessary to fund and support such nonprofits, do so part time after and between a paying job that they can't afford to leave behind, making it necessary that any action they take either be relevant to their home and the areas easily accessible from it, or else do advocacy on issues that they have no personal familiarity with and risk misunderstanding and misrepresenting.

    Just because modern communications has made the world a great deal smaller does not mean it has become small; local advocacy and activism is necessary, far more so than telling western advocacy groups to focus on areas they are weakest instead of strongest.
    • Like Like x 25
    • Insightful Insightful x 3
  4. This may have escaped your notice, but most people don't really care about things that happen to people in other countries. If you hear a report of someone getting groped or stabbed on the subway you ride, you go "hey that could've been me", if you hear about someone getting acid thrown in their face or honor killed in some developing nation you'll just shrug and go "phew I live in America so it can't happen to me". The "bad things are happening... and they could happen to you or people you care about too" message is compelling. The "bad things are happening... and its to other people you can't relate to with little demographic overlap and no risk to you and yours" message is not. Western feminists are going to primarily care about gender inequality in the West, even if its an order of magnitude worse elsewhere because its what people do. They are Western, the West is their concern and their problem, not elsewhere.
    • Like Like x 18
    • Hugs Hugs x 3
    • Insightful Insightful x 1
  5. Axiomatic

    Axiomatic I'm alone in my house on Mars

    Yeah, shockingly enough, I care whether or not my country is a sexist dump more than I care if some distant country is a sexist dump.
    • Like Like x 15
    • Hugs Hugs x 1
  6. aqiml


    Aren't sex-selective abortions a good thing, though? The cultural reality is causing the abortions, not the other way around, and the women who are born in a sex-skewed environment will benefit from more choice in partners, which is an avenue for social mobility that's not always available.

    Also, if the choice is between "forced to have abortions until X sons" or "forced to give birth until X sons", the preferable option seems obvious.
  7. Then you get a lot of angry sexless men causing social unrest.

    And the problem here isn't the abortions. That's just a symptom and a way of sneaking pro-life rhetoric in.
    • Like Like x 24
    • Insightful Insightful x 1
  8. Q99


    Oh, facepalm. One, people can care about multiple things. Two, it is much harder to travel to another cultural and deal with difficult ingrown problems- which, hey, we *do* try and do stuff about, working to spread gender equality by supporting local organizations and by education is a thing that's been going on for a long time and Hillary Clinton is a major supporter of, but is not something a random person on the street can do much about [other than donations] thanks to lacking training- than it is to deal with problems that can be dealt with by talking to people locally. This is not transferable effort, it can't be simply shuffled from one to another.

    "More or less" is your opinion, but a simple check of the numbers tells us we're not egalitarian yet, and still got a good distance to go. "We're closer, so we should stop trying," is not a very good argument, IMO.

    (Also, we have reports of jerks on subways spreading their legs since the 1915s. Along with a number of other behaviors, some of which *have* been drastically reduced to the point of no longer being problems, like spitting up the places! Which, you'll note, is no longer an everyday occurrence in most transit systems. So, it's both a thing and a thing that people can do something about without much effort)

    Going over and doing something takes moral courage, training, *and* resources.

    And people actually do it. There's organizations dedicated to just this kind of thing- not enough of them and they don't have enough resources or people, but this is not a problem that is being overlooked.

    If you want to donate, there's The International Center for Advocates Against Discrimination, Global Fund for Women, and similar.
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2017
    • Like Like x 21
    • Insightful Insightful x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. Well, it might cause an increase in the value of women (scarcity, etc etc) over the course of a generation. But... that's just as liable to result in "keep them safe and controlled" sentiment as "give them more say" sentiment.
    • Like Like x 4
    • Hugs Hugs x 1
  10. JayF

    JayF The Idol Producer

    So Armenia did an India/China?

    This is highly disturbing, but also a tad baffling. Daughters when women are in short supply should, from a purely transactional point of view, be able to bring in a higher dowry when asked for marriage.

    Or is it the bride's family that pays in Armenia.
  11. Avernus

    Avernus Abomination

    Really, you have to have some kind of filter like that or you'd go insane. The world is huge, and even in the nicest places there's plenty of bad things going on; if you actually cared equally about everyone on the planet you'd either fall into a massive depression because there's so much total suffering, or become indifferent to the suffering of others to keep functioning. Caring about everyone equally is the sort of idea that sounds all noble and moral, but is a really bad idea in practice.

    And as a practical matter you can do far more about suffering close at hand, and are more likely to have some moral responsibility for it too.
    • Like Like x 7
    • Hugs Hugs x 3
  12. Hotdog Vendor

    Hotdog Vendor Yo momma is fanon

    Down Under
    So... is the root of the problem here that a relevant number of people are valuing male offspring over female offspring?
    It's not like anyone can do much to change their values. And who has a right or responsibility to do so?
  13. Avernus

    Avernus Abomination

    People who believe in equality of the genders, and people who realize the negative consequences of such behavior have the responsibility.

    As for "right"; it's not like there's any restriction on who has a "right" to persuade people. So the answer is "anybody and everybody".
    • Like Like x 10
    • Insightful Insightful x 1
  14. Ford Prefect

    Ford Prefect What is Project Zohar? Director

    Feminists do tackle issues such as these.
    • Like Like x 24
  15. Melancholeric

    Melancholeric Love can ignite the stars.

    It's less of a «feminists should help people in dire need» and more of a «feminists should go somewhere far away so I can pretend they don't exist».
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017 at 12:00 PM
    • Insightful Insightful x 22
    • Like Like x 9
  16. FriedIce

    FriedIce The Authentic Fake

    The segues into something I was talking about with a friend who works in this sector.

    If western feminists are going over to less developed countries and spreading modern feminism while trying to empower women... is that cultural imperialism?

    I mean, from a certain perspective its people going over to less delevoped countries to try to educate and impose morality on the natives, overriding whatever local cultural mores were already extant.
  17. EarthScorpion

    EarthScorpion CR of the Thrown

    Honestly, when it comes down to it, one of the most powerful tools of feminism has been the washing machine. You just have to look at the time it takes for a pre-washing machine wash to be done and therefore how much time washing machines freed up to realise what a powerful tool of liberation (from washing) it is.

    I guess what I'm saying here is that, honestly, a lot of the things which made feminism possible are decidedly non-ideological, and bluntly I suspect that if Western activists want to do something, there's easier hanging fruit which will both aid women and the entire population - like making sure villages have running water - that probably won't produce pushback and are quite possibly preconditions for a local viable feminist movement to arise.
    • Insightful Insightful x 18
    • Like Like x 5
    • Informative Informative x 1
  18. Serafina

    Serafina Semper Legens Councillor

    WhatAboutism isn't new, and is both a propaganda technique and a special form of the tu quogue fallacy (which is itself a special form of the ad hominem).
    It's also fundamentally dishonest because the people who use it don't actually do anything about the foreign issue in question themselves.
    And lastly - demanding that a much harder problem is solved first before an easier problem is tackled also gets you nowhere. This is especially true if spending all your resources on the former would lead to huge inefficiencies, which is the case here.

    As for what to actually do about this:
    This is obviously a huge structural problem. Selective abortion such as this happens because in such cultures, having a female child is a much larger burden than having a male one. So the solution to this isn't just to change peoples notions - it's about making actual economic change happen. Specifically, getting women into the workforce, a pay that they can both live from (or support a family with) and keep for themselves.
    If the issue here is caused by family wanting a child who takes care of them in old age, then the solution would be for the state to provide a proper social safety net. If they can count on sufficient payment past retirement, in the form of pensions or otherwise, then the reason for this would fall away. Of course, that can be hard to guarantee with unstable governments - here, economically independent women would also help further.
    • Like Like x 26
    • Insightful Insightful x 2
  19. Ford Prefect

    Ford Prefect What is Project Zohar? Director

    To some extent this is why we've seen the rise of intersectionality in the discourse of modern feminism. Along with just the fact that a lot of feminists are just, like, ordinary people who don't have the resources to invade Armenia or whatever, balancing the positive act of promoting the dignity of women in other countries against not overriding the women in that country or drowning out their voices is a difficult balancing act. But like when you see initiatives against FGM or hear about the anti-honour killing laws in Pakistan, that's not just coming from nowhere.
    • Like Like x 19
    • Insightful Insightful x 1
  20. And factory textiles. And gas/electric heating and cooking apparatus. And indoor plumbing. And modern obstetric and pediatric medicine.

    Yes, but I'm going to bite that bullet and say I think that sort of soft liberal cultural imperialism is a good thing, as I expect most liberals do whether they'd be willing to plainly say so or not.
    • Like Like x 4
    • Hugs Hugs x 1
  21. Reveen

    Reveen Dunked On

    I mean, a lot of this "why don't feminists help the third world" and the idea that it's cultural imperialism tends to rest on the blind assumption that feminism doesn't already exist in that country. Like the locals are like the monkeys banging the bone in front of the monolith regarding the subject. Which tends to be bullshit in most cases.

    I mean, look here, Armenian feminists!

    Armenian Feminists Respond to 'Global Armenians' Ad in the New York Times
    An Armenian woman’s place is at the protest
    Armenian Feminist - online magazine
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017 at 6:32 PM
    • Like Like x 18
    • Insightful Insightful x 3
    • Hugs Hugs x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  22. Ford Prefect

    Ford Prefect What is Project Zohar? Director

    The article in the OP even mentions such a group. Often what is most useful is providing support to and solidarity existing groups.
    • Like Like x 9
    • Hugs Hugs x 1
    • Insightful Insightful x 1
  23. galahad

    galahad Seeker of Truths

    Not sure why Armenia's handling of their internal social issues is relevant in a criticism levelled at western feminism. Western feminism is aimed at addressing issues faced by women in west, feminists in other regions do same for their women. Sometime they collborate and share resources. Thats...how the world works ? Anyone familiar with my posts knows i am pretty much a cave dwelling bigot with little love for feminism in modern west but i dont see the cause for outrage here.
    • Like Like x 6
    • Hugs Hugs x 1
  24. Q99


    So, just checking, Incognito did a total hit-and-run here, with apparently no signs of having checked back in the thrad?
    • Hugs Hugs x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  25. vicky_molokh

    vicky_molokh The *other* transhuman[ist]

    Kyïv, Ukraine
    In some ways this looks like a casual news drop more like the ones often done in the megathreads. In fact, why isn't it part of one if we have one?
    • Insightful Insightful x 1
I just write Internal Ad System Story