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Fantasy vs Modern battle questions.

Discussion in 'History & Military Discussion' started by Gunbird55, Dec 18, 2016.

  1. If a gateway to a high-fantasy world would open up in a city like New York, and hostile beings were to come pouring through that gateway without warning, how would the modern day people in the city, the country and world would react?

    Who would respond to this invasion first? And how effective would they be against the invaders. Most of them are medieval like worriers with a small number of mages with them.

    How long will it take for the enemy to relies that the took out more then they can chew and try to retreat?

    What agency would be in charge during and after the battle? DHS? DoD? What branch of the military will be the first to go though the portal, if that sort if decision was made?

    Also, what will be the political, financial, social consequences from after such battle?
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  2. What are the mages capable of ? Do the warriors have enchanted gear , if so what are they ? ... In a nutshell what capabilities does the fantasy setting , what is their intended end game . Please do not say DnD 3.5 wizard rules or similarly broad rule sets as this generally result in discussions dying in less than a page instead give a list of spells equipment load outs for hypothetical units .
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2016
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  3. No the mages are not based on rules DnD . I don’t even know how the rules work, because I don’t even play tabletop RPG games.

    The mages are not the stereotypical and know how to us a weapon like a maces and short swords. Most of them can perform elemental spells like fire, earth, wind and so forth .Others can heal up there comrades. Some mages can learn to do psychological damage.Few can preform enchantments . And even fewer can summon creatures, or even in this case,a portal to another world. Almost all of them can make a shield for mere seconds, to a few minutes.

    Enchanted equipment only given to officers because the magic is tough to learn and it takes a lot of both time and money to produce them. They can anything from adding more protection compared to standard armor, to making there weapons that have a element enchantment to make them more deadly .
  4. Reveen

    Reveen Dunked On



    Cops are going to be about as they would be against a riot. Except the rioters are murderous, organized, and armed with bladed weapons. Of course they'd be able to take a bunch of people out, but they'd get overwhelmed through numbers. They might be able to turn things around if they can deploy the riot police, but that's where magic lightning bolts come in.

    Things are going to be fucked until the national guard makes it on the scene.
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  5. Project30bis

    Project30bis Sells Farms to Loaders

    N. America
    How big is this army? The NYPD has over 36,000 uniformed officers. That's bigger than both armies at Hastings combined.
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  6. NYPD(or other local police) is going to be the first on the scene, but it's going to quickly move up the chain. I'm not sure who response next, but I'd bet on it being the US military: I'm certain that there are US contingencies for if the US was invaded by airborne troops, and those are probably what will be used as a launch point.

    The Defense department would almost certainly be in charge: while the department of Homeland security has some jurisdiction over national security, it seems to be focused on the Intelligence side of things, with the only force under it's auspices that would really be military is the Coast Guard. The department of Defense is the department that oversees the Armed Forces, so it's going to be in charge during the battle. Afterwards it somewhat depends, but given how this is basically an unprovoked invasion I can't see any possible way that the USA wouldn't try and counter invade, which would still put the DoD as the preeminent organization involved.

    First through the portal is complicated, though unless it was over water the Navy is probably not it. Army seems most likely unless the portal goes incredibly high up. The Army, Marines, and Air Force are almost certainly going to be deployed though the portal soon though.

    It's hard to say how effective the Police and local forces are going to be, especially since this is all going to be coming at them cold. Plus, fighting inside the city is going to be exceptionally bad, because it makes it that much harder to deal with the invaders, and allows them to deal significantly more damage. It's really uncertain when they're going to retreat. If they remain as a consolidated force, then as soon as military units arrive (or lucky and prepared swat teams). If not, then they're not going to have communication with each other, meaning each group is going to have to decide to leave on their own, probably once they see another group get destroyed. Which could take awhile, because cities are big places.

    No matter what this is going to cause an immediate economic crisis. Politically, it's a complete shitshow. Sure, we were attacked on our soil, but this is something that no one could actually see coming or prepare for. So, think of something like 9/11 happening again, except with a bigger death toll and even less cause. America immediately rallies behind the President, and decides to invade those responsible. We probably activate Nato, who almost certainly respond because this is just as out of the blue for them and they're just as vulnerable.

    Oh, and there's going to be a lot of panicking, as what happened there could happen essentially anywhere.

    Main issue would be force concentration, equipment and training: NYPD has that many people, but they're spread out, and few of them are going to be armed as if they needed to fight a battle.
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  7. Fell

    Fell A Work of Meepmorp

    They make great inroads until Washington hears and escalates immediately to drone warfare.
  8. Project30bis

    Project30bis Sells Farms to Loaders

    N. America
    Yeah, but if each police officer can shoot 2 or 3 warriors before he gets stabbed, the NYPD still wins. I'm pretty sure almost all uniformed officers carry a handgun at the very least.

    Of course, if we change the scenario to "million-strong hordes", then the Army or National Guard may have to get involved.
  9. Volt Cruelerz

    Volt Cruelerz Software Engineer Hoosier in Florida

    It really comes down to how powerful their mages are and how cool they are with/how capable they are of leveling skyscrapers. If these guys can't do much more than minor antipersonnel elemental spells, a single police officer is likely on the same lethality level as a wizard because handguns. I'll assume this is the case below, because if one wizard can level buildings, it'll be utter carnage and make Aleppo look like a garden.

    The enemy command structure would likely assume that the police are our wizards, our elite warriors and prioritize police stations as targets, assuming they can locate them. The battle will likely be a bloodbath with civilian casualties astronomical. Until very recently, militaries didn't really care about civilian losses on the enemy side, so expect a massacre. Tens of thousands will die and the stock market will likely either crash or be frozen.

    Police won't effectively be able to respond because of how spread out they are, so it will immediately be escalated to the military. Something on this scale would go to the DoD which would probably send in jets and drones first until the army itself can arrive.

    Given that they had previously assumed they were already facing our elite troops, once they start facing the actual military, they'll realize that they've bitten off way more than they can chew and retreat, assuming they can, but control of the gate itself would be prioritized and could be likely taken easily by a combination of drone assaults and paratroopers, depending on where it is.

    If they can successfully retreat, they'll immediately begin fortifying the other side of the gate, scared of us coming through. If they're captured, their commanders will be interrogated as will their mages, probably in the highest security facilities we have if we even suspect the possibility of them having mind control level abilities. If you think for a second that the US military would pass up the chance for literal magic... Heh...

    The national response would be like 9/11. We'll rally behind the President, who will undoubtedly respond by counterattacking. Drones would be the first things through and after sufficient recon has been gathered, tanks will roll in, a level of force they likely haven't seen before which will be all but immune to everything they have, not to mention the sheer shock that would come from facing such things for the first time. It won't go well for them and a beachhead will be established. The army will make its way through and begin a campaign against the invaders.

    While details of this can't be known without more information about the invading nation, depending on how billigerent they are, the President's demeanor, and the public perception of the initial massacre, I could even see the deployment and use of small nuclear weapons as unlikely, but possible as a display of force. After such use, I cannot imagine surrender would be too far behind.

    Note: Mentally, I'm imagining a fantasy world like that of the anime GATE.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
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  10. willyvereb

    willyvereb Migratory Thinker

    You are really overestimate guns.
    Hollowpoint 9mm bullets versus armor of almost any kind is a poor matchup, I can tell you.
    And this is just a bog-standard "medieval" army. No fantasy BS added to the mix.
    You also seriously underestimate the importance of organization, skill and mentality.
    You basically put lots of small pockets of policemen against a disciplined and well formed up army. You are boned.

    Also unlike Gate where the JSDF-wank meant soldiers and outright military fuckin' helicopters got to the scene within a hour, mobilizing even the National Guard would IIRC take days. If a large army invades New York from a magic portal during peacetime then you can more or less write the city off the map. Okay, the infrastructure and a good portion of the city would be there but basically we can realistically do nothing to prevent that army from taking the city.
    If this were wartime with military at the ready? Sure, you can react faster. But like everything the army also has a certain inertia to it.
    That being said when the modern army counterattacks against this magically gated but otherwise medieval level force they sure show their wrath. Just like others said.

    But this is without getting into the nifty details what the OP would actually mean under "high-fantasy". I mean it isn't rare for fantasy to exaggerate armor so much that its people are almost like walking tanks. See the Warcraft movie and the 20mm+ thick armors Footmen wore there along with giant swords in the 10-20kg range. You might barely notice it but now that I pointed out you could see how surreal that sounds. That's a start. Or think of various fantastic creatures, I don't even bother to list what kind of abilities they can have. It can go from mean ugly animal to indestructible flying WMD creature. Or what effects magic can have? First off its power and unpredictability to us. Again, depending on how "high" is that high-fantasy that can be ridiculously stacked against us. And then the versatility, the various yet unforeseen ways they can effect us. Mind control, curses, magic diseases and even weirder BS. If science literally has no answer to that how are we supposed to feel safe? Again, it depends on the "highness" of high-fantasy. I get that the OP really didn't want to make the fantasy forces to be too powerful. So I don't get much into that, nevermind that this is History&Military Discussion so talking about magic is a bit silly here.
    Regardless even if it's a plain simple medieval army with some weird quirks what I discussed in the previous paragraphs holds. We don't have an answer for such surprise attack and whatever city they attack would get sacked to at least a degree before the modern world can respond in real force. This might shock some people but war and fighting rarely produced out of nothing. It has precursors and it has its own process. This is why they don't need such unrealistic standards as being at the jump to act the moment anything big happens to a city.
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  11. Knowledge of soldiers with archaic armaments and armor in New York is wide spread within minutes due to social media , but most presume it to be a publicity stunt .

    Heavy civilian casualties occur in the first hour forcing the cops in to riot suppression mode .

    Most of the standard medieval infantry are then dispensed with easily using tear gas and water hoses until the mages either respond by opening more portals to prevent most of their forces from getting one-shotted by what they might presume to be enemy mages along with deploying air and water mages to counteract the riot cops .

    News gets out about the bizarre escalating riot prompting civilians to evacuate .

    The polices with their limited methods of lethal crowd control begin to lose ground forcing them to call SWAT to intervene .Mild police casualties are suffered during the time it takes the SWAT teams to arrive . Their effectiveness is somewhat hampered by the healers continuously resurrecting downed units . However they still manage to put down the invading melee units faster than the mages can buff them . Forcing the portal mages to spawn more entry portals in order to cut off potential supply lines which proves ineffective against helicopter machine guns . The mages become increasingly confused as to why we have such a limited array of mage types but still have numbers sufficient enough to make front line deployment an effective strategy .The invaders execute a retreat taking dead cops and civilians to be resurrected and interrogated .
    Meanwhile New York is left scratching head over the recent attack with extremely unconventional weapons .

    Attempts to interrogate the surviving invaders are hampered by the language barriers with no possibility of translation due to aforementioned language not existing on our planet . The mages could evade capture for months with the exception of healers due to lack of identifiable weapons and tendency of dressing with the intent of blending in .
    Very few mages are left however most the stranded healers are captured with little difficulty using pepper spray and other such conventional means while wind mage capture attempts result are significantly less successful . However the remaining earth and water mages are still at large and effectively impossible to capture without sever impairment at this point in time due to shear flexibility of their spells .

    However if inter-dimensional communication is standard across all mages we will never be able to capture any mages for study .
    CCTV footage of the area may reveal that the invaders can effectively teleport troops in and out of their territory . Officials attempt to develop a rational explanation for the attack such as a mass surveillance hack alongside a conventional attack . Greater focus is placed on cyber defense or whichever other security faults they would presume allowed for the attack to take place . Meanwhile the remaining mages attempt to sabotage infrastructure or report any findings to their home base . Ultimately they can easily reach and get info on us while we cannot do the reverse .

    Fantasyland launches another attack years later after having silently acquired more intel this time making heavy usage of summons and ranged casters such as fire mages . This gets put down but not without military involvement and significantly greater casualties on our side this time .

    Eye witness reports of dragons and behemoths force officials to accept that the most absurd explanation for the attack (inter dimensional invaders ) is a reality . Defense spending now focuses upon improving our understanding of quantum physics and other theories that possess even the slightest hint that they might allow us to access other dimensions alongside significant R&D for improvements of city wide surveillance .

    Police are now entrusted with significantly greater power and lethal force . Suspicious civilians are shot on sight either with taser bullets or other forms of highly incapacitating munitions or even with the intent to kill due most teleport recon mages being essentially impossible to capture and contain continuous incapacitating effects .

    All we can do is play defense while the enemy forces can continue to deploy increasingly powerful assailants from an unreachable location .
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
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  12. willyvereb

    willyvereb Migratory Thinker

    Um, water cannons and tear gas fails against even a determined mob, much less against an actual army of any kind.

    EDIT: And seriously, the hell is this weird ass scenario you wrote above? It's like you're in your own world and barely even connect with the topic.
    Policemen have no chance to subdue an actual army, period. Firearms and other fruits of modern technology are neat but most tools policemen have still don't give them a chance to properly fight even an ancient army, point. And there's absolutely no way the govenments would ignore or keep denying the existence of fantasyland if this happens. Heck, they'd be interested to not do that, afterall they have an entire nation if not most of the Western world riled up against these fantasylanders and provides an opportunity to spread USA influence there. Not to mention portals that can randomly pop up anywhere would scare people shitless and there's no way anyone will let that situation remain.

    The last part of your post is gibberish I can just only describe as "What?" with no further comments.
    Seriously, if you wish to write a story that's fine, but that section is a few hundred pixels further up on the main page.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
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  13. EarthScorpion

    EarthScorpion CR of the Thrown

    And yet despite that, their armour gets punched through by slow moving arrows.

    Therefore we can conclude that the armour is actually made of papier mache, and the swords are hollow.

    Trying to evaluate stylistic choices as if they're literally true results in junk data, so shouldn't be done.
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  14. Reveen

    Reveen Dunked On

    What the hell is SWAT going to do?

    I mean, even discounting the fact that this is far beyond anything they're prepared for. Sure they have automatic weapons, but they don't have that many of them, and they have limited ammo, what happens when they run out? Try to out fight a guy with a sword and a shield with a rifle butt? Yeah, that's going to go well. That goes double for an overweight patrol cop trying to fight off a halberdier with his nightstick.

    The cops can have a shitload of trouble with two dudes with guns massive riots and motherfuckers on PCP. Guns or no and organized, well armed, and motivated force of guys with melee weapons is going to give them an ass pounding.

    The best chance is the riot cops, but riot cops are trained and equipped to handle disorganized mobs of people who really care about death and injury, not an army.

    Our technological advantage is only going to become relevant once we get soldiers there in significant numbers with air support.
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  15. tankdrop24

    tankdrop24 Tread first into hell

    Team up with local gangs for the weirdest Red Dawn crossover ever?
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  16. Couple thing to note that haven't been brought up yet:

    Air support is a 'Jesus Christ No' option, because its New York, aka one of the highest population densities on the planet. The collateral damage from using any kind of air based heavy weapons in that kind of environment is horrific, and the military using that when American civilians are on the line is... unlikely. Air support is probably going to be used for surveillance, sniper posts and that's about it.

    The second thing it is America we are talking about, so people have guns. That's not a good thing from the American perspective. I give it even odds whether the invaders kill more people then yahoos with guns shooting back at them or into the chaos- remember, high population density, bullets going off in random directions is bad.

    There's no two ways around this: it's going to be a bloodbath for everyone involved until the military gets boots on the ground- give that 12 to 24 hours as meatball estimate, maybe/probably less. At which point it gets less bloody, but still nightmarish till the military gets the gate locked down.

    I'm also pretty skeptical of police officers being able to turn this back- at the end of the day this is not what they were trained for, and their also going to need to keep a lid on civil unrest. They also need time to concentrate their forces and gear up, not to mention react to the OCP of 'there is that one guy that points at us and things blow up like he has a rocket launcher'- their not trained or outfitted for that.

    Overall, this is going to make 9/11 look pleasant in comparison.

    Though, something that hasn't been brought up yet- what are the fantasy forces goals in this? I mean, we seem to be going on the assumption of 'viking murder horde', but that doesn't really make tons of sense aside from 'yay, fight scenes!' I mean, at bare minimum they're probably going to be trying to establish a base camp, which doesn't necessarily mean 'raid and burn'- particularly with how weird New York would be to them.
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  17. Volt Cruelerz

    Volt Cruelerz Software Engineer Hoosier in Florida

    Something that might be worth noting is that so long as you stay away from windows, skyscrapers might be one of the safest places you could be so long as they don't figure out how to use the elevator.

    Also, how effective would your average car be as an anti infantry weapon?

    Air support will largely depend on where the gate was and how the evacuation is going.

    I'm not sure the Americans with guns thing will be quite so bad as you suspect. By default, we'll have the high ground, so as long as people shoot enemy formations from long range, it shouldn't go too badly. Honestly, I think it'll just speed up the death rate on both sides.

    As far as motivations go, that's valid. If it's an expeditionary force, they might secure the surrounding area, but open combat is unlikely. Upon reaching what they'll surely realize quickly is a massive city, and since massive cities tend to be parts of massive empires with militaries you don't want to piss off, unless they've been planning this invasion and already had intelligence on NYC or are seriously desperate or battle hungry, they'll probably just set up camp and wait for us to come to them to ask what the hell they're doing in the middle of our city.

    Provided they didn't know where they'd end up, they'd probably think they'd stumbled into our capital or something. Naturally the first official contact would be police officers, but once a language barrier was demonstrated, police would probably assume it was some sort of public protest. Given NYC is so large I'm assuming (but don't know) that you need a permit for such things, so the officers would eventually communicate that they need the fantasy leader. From there, primitive dialogues eventually open up and discussions begin.

    Provided that their leader is at least slightly rational, they'll probably determine we'd make a far better ally than enemy and begin preliminary peaceful first contact activities like giving gifts.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
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  18. I'm not saying the police or even the SWAT can reliably inflict casualties or even consistently slow the army down , just that it would be interpreted as a bizarrely organized riot with and responded to as such at first and that they might attempt to bring progressively more heavy hitting groups over the course of the initial engagement . The military might not come into play as they can take quite a bit of time to deploy especially in an urban environment.

    Medieval infantry primarily consist of conscripted peasants and commoners with a few heavily armored knights . Lightly trained melee units who are more often than not be wearing material ranging from hardened leather to improvised plate optimistically and archers with very little armor generally will not fare well against even something as weak as the riot police . Without the mages or knights it would just be a steadily increasing mob that could swamp New York with numbers after a certain point .

    Also what can they do about automatic weapon fire , flash bang grenades , tear gas , and streams of water strong enough to knock a person down . Such things would usually exclusively be the work of mages , which should prove demoralizing to say the least.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
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  19. EarthScorpion

    EarthScorpion CR of the Thrown

    And on the other hand, though, the shock on Standard Fantasy Infantry against guns is going to be catastrophic to their morale. I'd like to know why people are assuming that Standard Fantasy Infantry are going to be willing to advance against, hell, even just a line of riot cops once they've broken out the guns.

    We know what happens to infantry trying to advance into a gunline. They don't throw themselves to the last man - the shock of gunfire leads them to break and flee once they take casualties. So there's certainly going to be a lot of choking up and slowing of the SFI after combat encounters, and if the Fantasy side wants to continue their advance, they're going to have to rotate fresh soldiers to the front very quickly.

    Hell, what happens when the standard breakdown in order of armies within a city is observed, and the fantasy invaders lose control of their soldiers when they start looting supermarkets?

    Any plan which assumes that Standard Fantasy Infantry are inhuman automata perfectly able to cope and react to the extremely out-of-context situation they find themselves in is just as flawed as one which assumes the National Guard will be on the scene in 15 minutes.
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  20. It depends on what time frame your talking about and the source of the army. By the 11th century for instance much of the infantry were often recruited from freemen who were expected to maintained a certain quality of equipment while peasants were often employed as archers and skirmishers or how by the 13th century you had some kings like Edward the first who employed paid armies sometimes numbering tens of thousand of men for their campaigns.

    Beyond that what sort of force are we talking a local noble force which might vary in quality and numbers depending how powerful a noble they are, a king or a emperor's forces or perhaps a city state's army which might be supplemented by mercenaries?
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  21. willyvereb

    willyvereb Migratory Thinker

    "I don't like that so they are weak!"
    Seriously, cut off the salt. If you used a bit of critical thinking you'd realize how much your argument stinks.
    Besides, this isn't even the place to discuss this. So yeah, if you wish to go on either make a thread or talk to me in PMs.

    Nope, the core of medieval armies are a mix of warrior cultures who practice weapons and fighting from youth and keep honing their skills through their lives. This is why they're drafted, because of their ability.
    The image of medieval armies being mostly just mob of peasants is a comically flawed one. Medieval armies may have been chiefly conscripted and unprofessional but filled with people who knew very well how to fight. These people are taken directly from cultures who practiced for warfare and with a good reason.
    That's for actual medieval warfare. In fantasy? They are almost always professional armies with well-disciplined near-homogenous blobs of soldiers. Even further distances from your idea of "lol peasants with poor weapons".
    EDIT: Also leather armor didn't exist in the medieval age. Forget that D&D shit. Gambeson, that was the most popular protection of this time.

    Second, you argue that flashes, loud noises and water surging forth is viewed as magic thus they must fear it. Except you talk about an army that actually have faced off against magic and mere imitations of it won't scare them that much. Seriously, your whole argument is an oxymoron there. Actual medieval armies would be more scared of such events than fantasy soldiers.

    Shock of what? That guns made unorganized loud noises? Or that police pistol rounds are completely harmless against any medieval age armor? You make a lump of generalizations and assume a loose group of policemen will have the same effect as a long line of musketeers unleashing their firepower at once. Besides, these guys live in a world where fireballs and other destructive spells can fly around them. Do you seriously believe that smokeless guns are going to be that scary to them? They might be confused at how these work but that's about it.

    Yes, police may soon opt for higher powered weapons that can actually punch through armor. They might appropriate weapons from gun shops and empty all their surplus from armories. This might help but I am still very skeptical of the chances on the Police side. No, the fantasy army is no automata and of course both sides are looking forward to surprises but the basic outlook of things is an army versus a lawkeeping force. There might be lone snipers and such which would keep ailing the fantasy army long after the bulk of the police was defeated. I can agree on that. But you seriously put the whole gun deal outside of its context.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
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  22. Well it might be effective against cloth armor but given we are talking fantasy armies then its unlikely anyone is going to be armed with that sort of thing.(At least I can't recall any fantasy setting that made use of cloth armor).
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  23. willyvereb

    willyvereb Migratory Thinker

    Police uses almost exclusively hollowpoint ammo for their pistols which might penetrate denim (occasionally not) but gambeson is a whole different beast. Its thickness alone would mean that the hollowpoint round would expand and lose its energy before reaches the skin. And that's before considering actually how damn good gambeson alone was. It likely wouldn't stop a 9mm FMJ but a hollowpoint is a different matter.
    And yeah, fantasy armies are generally wearing fancy plate armors and such so that means no pistol round will hurt them (well maybe the original 5.7mm or if somebody happens to own an MP7). You'd need assault rifles and full powered rifles to hurt them, and that's assuming their armor isn't made of "fantasy metals", enchanted or just plain thicker than what real life armors were (see my Warcraft example).
  24. Reveen

    Reveen Dunked On

    The problem is that this is more likely to happen with mass gunfire, they'd freak out because they see tons of their buddies going down at once, not because the loud noises are scary. And whether mass gunfire actually happens in this situation is a complete crapshoot. It would take the PD to get wise to the situation really fast and get their guys organized in a ridiculously small amount of time to get enough guns shooting at the enemy to get a rout.

    Even with riot cops they need to be on the scene of a protest they think will turn into a riot to respond effectively. Their based chance is to barricade streets where they can hold off their advance and possibly rout them with gunfire, but that's going to be a pain in the ass in a city.
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  25. CV12Hornet

    CV12Hornet Riter.

    Tacoma, Washington
    Given this is New York, a lot of this also depends on where in the city the portal opens up in. If, for instance, it opens up in Central Park, then that has significant effects on the tactics of the invaders, who stand a good chance of not realizing they're in a major city until they get out of it, and it's a much more inviting target for air strikes than the skyscraper-choked streets. If, however, they show up in the middle of a street, then that likely causes surprise in the surroundings, high initial casualties from cars, easier defense in both the skyscrapers and barricades, but also heavily restricts use of airpower.

    Either way, this is going to be bloody for both sides.

    Oh, one more thing: is this a proper royal army? Or is it some greedy noble or minor prince thinking he could grab some free land or do a quick chevauchee? That would make a huge difference in enemy force composition.
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