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Discussion Has Worm fanfiction saturation reached the point in which one can write fanfiction without having

Discussion in 'Fanfiction Discussion' started by Tahu1809, Nov 7, 2016.

  1. Ellf

    Ellf Hivelord

    Location:
    Ohio
    Not much, honestly. I have a pretty good ability to separate characterizations in my head. Comes from reading as fast as I do. (1600 words per minute)

    I can also see the influences of canon on Constellations!Taylor along with how she's different.

    Worm was a fun read overall, and I'm finding I appreciate the fanfiction more now that I've read the story. That said, I do hope that people start writing more variety on this site.
     
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  2. Morphic Tide

    Morphic Tide Crazy Brainstormer, Munchkin and Wannabe Min-Maxer

    Location:
    MI, USA
    There are series that doing that just isn't worth the trouble. Worm is close simply due to size. I'd only read it when I have a few hours with no other reading lined up, due to the size of it, and I consider 50k word fics to be light reading, spending only an hour or two on them.

    Your way of thinking is responsible for several already-niche fandoms dying out, because nobody can get into them due to being expected to hold a conversation about basically everything in the franchise. I, personally, have been mocked for not knowing damn-near everything about Warhammer 40k, and I don't have the time to dedicate so much of my memory to one franchise. Keep in mind that 40k is one of the fandoms most prone to fanon, because almost nothing is explic canon, so the fans are entirely justified in ignoring whatever they want.
    Not necessarily. If you have a good memory, and read the fics on forum threads that have a running commentary, you can make a fic with rather little fanon, outside of the utterly pervasive stuff. Like Storage Seals in Naruto. Never specifically pointed out as a thing in canon, they probably came from explaining the things one of the characters did.
    No, because good fanfiction can be explicitly based on another work of fanfiction, rather than a canon work. I point at Fallout: Equestria again. It's called recursive fanfiction, and it kicks the fanon and denile of canon into high gear because the people making it are writing on something that uses it's own fanon and can be extremely outdated on the canon.
    No, it is not. It is about making a story based on another story. Look at Fallout: Equestria. That thing has little interaction with canon and has its own fanbase, with fanfics made about it with the only concession to MLP being some basic setting facts.
    Well, then, that may well be the most benign abuse of moderator powers that I've seen.
     
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  3. It's always hilarious when people counter something strongly based in canon with fanon. You sometimes see it in Worm fics, too. People go, "Why are you portraying Amy that way, it's not true to her canon woobieness!"

    I mean, you don't see that specific argument much, I think people have wised up on that cliche, but...
     
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  4. Olivebirdy

    Olivebirdy mook.

    I made a thread on SB that is supposed to help variety authors talk to each other, comment on each other's stories, recommend other stories that go outside the norm... It's here.

    Except for characterization, that is. If you don't look at the original, you're stuck playing telephone.

    But you used to. This was actually something that happened. Lots.
     
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  5. There is a wide difference between "expecting obsessive knowledge of even obscure canon" and "expecting someone to read the story they're writing a fic of". Talk about a false equivalency.

    I'm not saying someone should hunt all the WoGs and read Weaver Dice notes back to front before writing Worm fic but having the common sense and decency to read the freely available fucking novel or at least what's relevant to your writing would be nice.

    People not reading the manga relevant sources is how you get the Naruto or Harry Potter fandom on FFN. And yeah as Olivebirdy said your characterisation will always be shit if you haven't read/watched/whatever what you're writing about.
     
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  6. Though I admit, I've written Naruto fanfic without reading all of Naruto. I think I stopped watching/reading somewhere around the Pain arc? So, like, I could sorta...hrm, how to put it?

    Like, if someone had read all of Worm except for the last four-five Arcs, and just wanted to write a street-level Worm fanfic, I think that'd probably turn out alright.
     
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  7. Bludflag

    Bludflag shitposter extraordinaire

    Location:
    Croatia
    Please tell me your secrets.
     
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  8. That was why I put the "relevant to what you're writing" addendum. Cause yeah you can write good street level Worm if you got bored and dropped it at Weaver. Or write good fanfic of an incomplete series obviously. There's plenty of that. Trying to write a Cauldron heavy plot with just preLeviathan knowledge is a disaster waiting to happen though. Trying to focus on the PRT/Protectorate without reading the Weaver Arc is probably the source of a lot of problems for another example.
     
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  9. Ellf

    Ellf Hivelord

    Location:
    Ohio
    It's a blessing and a curse. The curse part comes when you run out of things to read so you lower your standards. As for the secrets... it really just has been a lot of practice. My read speed is honestly why I feel a little anxious whenever I post a new chapter. (Is the chapter too short? Is it too long? Why hasn't anyone responded yet?)

    That said, it just takes practice and focus.

    @ the real topic of the thread.

    I'm of the opinion that to be true to the series, you have to know something about it, whether it comes from wiki-walking, reading/watching, or extensive study. Relying on fanfic alone lets you fall too much into fanon clich├ęs and makes it all the more difficult to put your own spin on things.

    Edit: I didn't know there was a user named "The"
     
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  10. Morphic Tide

    Morphic Tide Crazy Brainstormer, Munchkin and Wannabe Min-Maxer

    Location:
    MI, USA
    Not really, some franchises are just too complicated, large or have too many stories in them. Or the fanbase doesn't care about the lore. *Points at Homestuck, JJBA and Warcraft*

    Homestuck: Multiple media types, characters die for no apparent reason, the thing is infested with weird ways to tell the story and it's probably the longest running story on the Internet to date.

    JJBA: A near-contemporary of Fist of the North Star. The thing is probably the longest running manga in existence. Half the reason the different main characters happen is probably the fact that the writer can't keep track of 30+ years of writing reliably.

    Warcraft: It's an MMO. The lore is there, but it's tied behind actually paying attention to the dialogue and quest text. And books. And quite a bit of it is in games that are half-retconed.

    40k has all of those problems. The better half of the lore is covered in plot holes and inconsistencies. The worse half is so heavy in contradictions and nonsense that the fanbase refuses to consider it 'proper' canon. And yet they expect me to be familiar with all of the lore they consider 'popular' and 'proper...' I can understand wanting me to be familiar with the rulebooks, but you shouldn't need to know two or three rulebooks by heart on top of a half-dozen book series in order to be considered a proper part of the fanbase.
     
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  11. Bludflag

    Bludflag shitposter extraordinaire

    Location:
    Croatia
    You forgot the Nasuverse.

    Now THAT is canon butthurt. :V
     
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  12. Acatalepsy

    Acatalepsy Firewall Proxy Moderator

    Location:
    The Diamond Age
    I don't agree with your logic here - I mean, your argument is more or less "why won't people who have read and enjoyed a thing not consider me, someone who hasn't read and doesn't enjoy that thing, a member of the group of people who have read and enjoyed that thing?" - but even if I did, Worm is a freely available, completed web series, not a sprawling multimedia franchise.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
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  13. Hykal94

    Hykal94 The Kitteh Knight of Islam

    That's not why Araki writes the way he does.

    Araki writes multiple protagonists because he took a good long look at Dragon Ball and its ludicrous power bloat.

    He looked at how so many Shonen series keeps going on and on forever using the same characters, never progressing, never changing, never doing anything different, repeating the same dumb arcs or adding pointless filler.

    Araki writes the way he does because he realised that if he went the way of something like Dragon Ball, he's gonna be stuck writing the same story with the same character and this limits his storytelling. This is the reason why JJBA has different a different JoJo with every new arc. With this, he's free to explore new themes with new casts, and JJBA is better for it.
     
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  14. Morphic Tide

    Morphic Tide Crazy Brainstormer, Munchkin and Wannabe Min-Maxer

    Location:
    MI, USA
    One that just so happens to be over twice as large as the entire Harry Potter series. Long story is lllooooonng. And I can't keep track of that much stuff anymore without being reminded, so I couldn't keep track of canon even if I wanted to.

    Also, how much of the Worm fandom do you think has read the entire series? How much of the Naruto fandom do you think has seen the entire anime? How much of the Pokemon fandom do you think has played all the games?

    Fandoms are filled with people who havn't finished the source material, but enjoyed it anyway. If they weren't, the comic fandoms would have gone extinct, several fandoms would never really exist in the first place and fanfiction would be in a worse state than it is in now.
    Fandoms are groups of people who enjoy a thing. Let me point at 40k: To be accepted as a fan, people expect you to be able to hold a conversation about anything in two or three editions of tabletop wargame, multiple video games and several entire series of books. Not a half-dozen books, but half a dozen series of them. And they often ignore the parts of official material they don't like. You never know what things they have read and accept as canon, because there's so much and so much is debated and hated.
     
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  15. Hykal94

    Hykal94 The Kitteh Knight of Islam

    lol no. My friend's only exposure to 40k is 1d4chan and Text Speech Device. Does not own any 40k game nor plays the tabletop. Yet he can meme just as well as anyone else. I don't own any 40k armies, but I do read some novels and love the games.

    Do you need to read all the EU material of Star Wars to be a fan? Heck no. As long as you play a game or watch one of the films, I'd consider them to be a fan.

    As long as the person knows the setting well enough and likes it, that's enough to be a fan. In other words:

    Why is 40k used as the example here? :confused: 40k is not all that different in that sense in regards to fandom.
     
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  16. Ser_Serendipity

    Ser_Serendipity The King

    I disagree strenuously. If everyone in the Naruto fandom (to quote the example I'm most familiar with) actually read and remembered the manga, it wouldn't be the blasted hellscape it is.
     
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  17. Morphic Tide

    Morphic Tide Crazy Brainstormer, Munchkin and Wannabe Min-Maxer

    Location:
    MI, USA
    Yes, he can meme, but he can't enter any sort of discussion on stuff like the tech in the setting without getting laughed out of the forum for not knowing about things that only ever show up in the wargame rulebooks, for one faction.
    Would you rather have a tiny number of highly canon accurate fanfics of varying quality, or hundreds of decent fanfics that make interesting AU elements on accident, the same or larger number of canon accurate fanfics and the actually good AUs, will all of that surrounded by vast mires of shit?

    Here's a tip: On FF.net, there's a feature that lets you organize fics by favorites, follows and comments. This is a quick way to sort the most popular of them out from the nameless masses of shit, and will let you see the good things without wading through the mire of shit. Sure, there's the fanon ruined fics, but most of the fics on the first page of 'most' results fics get their comments, follows and faves from actually being good stories.
     
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  18. Hykal94

    Hykal94 The Kitteh Knight of Islam

    Fanmade lore videos and wikis disagree with you. You don't need corebooks. You just need to know where to look.
     
  19. Ser_Serendipity

    Ser_Serendipity The King

    I would rather have less fics and less shit overall, yes.
    Incorrect. Current top twenty or so for Naruto by reviews or favorites are all absolute trash, except for Dreaming of Sunshine (mediocre), Team 8 (mediocre/extremely dated), and Of the River and the Seas (actually okay, but not my kinda thing).

    Popularity and quality are not connected in even the slightest. Believing otherwise is silly.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
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  20. Morphic Tide

    Morphic Tide Crazy Brainstormer, Munchkin and Wannabe Min-Maxer

    Location:
    MI, USA
    No, they are connected. It's that you hate what gets there, because you don't like what the majority of the fandom does. Quality of writing is largely subjective, after all.
     
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  21. Ser_Serendipity

    Ser_Serendipity The King

    lol, "subjective quality of writing." Absolutely classic. Good luck trying to argue Chunin Exam Day or The Sealed Kunai aren't poorly written dreadfully paced openly disturbing garbage.

    Edit: also "popularity and quality are decent subs for one another." Good lord.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
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  22. Morphic Tide

    Morphic Tide Crazy Brainstormer, Munchkin and Wannabe Min-Maxer

    Location:
    MI, USA
    Things get popular because a large number of people like it. Popularity isn't a substitute for quality any more than quality is an assurance of popularity. Things that fit a lot of 'objectively bad' criteria can end up popular.

    Things like grammar, spelling and coherent word choices are objective quality.

    Good characterization, coherent story and adherence to what the work is based on, sadly, are not objective parts of quality.

    Stories with no coherence in the plot at all, complete defilement of their source material and horrific characterization can be deemed 'good' by the many. Perhaps those many are uneducated, or insane. But it is the masses who determine the quality of storytelling, not critics. It is the masses who are the consumers, not the judging elite.
     
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  23. Which parts of the Manga?

    *girds loins for some sort of massive debate*
     
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  24. Ser_Serendipity

    Ser_Serendipity The King

    Nah, fuck that bullshit. When it comes to fiction, the masses aren't in a position to determine a damn thing. That's like saying the fans of a sport should be the referees.
    The whole thing, optimally, for the understanding of exactly what they're taking on and the ruthless poaching of context, but fine enough for people to just read up to what's relevant to their fic in particular. Can make a nice "period piece" that way, even.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
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  25. I really, genuinely started to lose interest after the timeskip. I'm saying that even though Sasori was cool and some of the post-Timeskip powers were impressive. I dropped off around...as I said, Pain arc. I just lost the drive that made me go 'I'm going to put time in every week to do this.'

    Same thing happened to me with One Piece, actually. I fell behind and then didn't pick it back up.
     
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