Location
Europe
My point is that we probably don't need to have the discussion about long term group role changes now. Especially since it is something that might upset either Noburi (taking away his first group role and giving it to the deserter) or Keiko (she doesn't like talking to people and is very angsty. Who knows how she'll take it.), and that's something that's dangerous to do right now.
We can't really direct the training of our teammates without giving them the full picture of why we want them to do stuff. When Nobby finds out later that we want to replace him and have already invested time to train Keiko up on it, he will resent us for not asking for his opinion and being manipulative. Same thing with Keiko.

Yes, we are not in a safe environment now, but there's a very good chance that things will get even more dangerous soon. The talks risk a social blowout now, but not having them risks things festering and a blowout later. I would rather have small one now than a big one later.

I think we really need to to take a risk and trust our teammates here.

As for the reward discussion being dangerous, I agree. But we need shinies, preferably sooner than later. I guess we could have Hazou present just his choices to the team and see if they agree to them without him justifying anything?

removed reward discussion / Diplo discussions for now
Oh god are we dodging this decision again? Maybe we should just work for free.

EDIT: Also note that Keiko's training plan is contingent to having a discussion about it with her and Nobby.
 
Last edited:
Location
USA
Voting is open for 3.5 hours.

CounterBot by eaglejarl, version 1.4


Plan name: Jutsu Hazou: Whack-a-Mole Madness

Voters: @Bombastus, @faflec, @QTesseract, @Radvic, @Threnodist, @Twofold
Num votes: 6


Plan name: Whose Leaf Does Not Wither
Voters: @Cariyaga, @faflec, @OliWhail, @Radvic, @schlega, @Twofold
Num votes: 6


Plan name: Jutsu Hazou: Whack-A-Mole
Voters: @Anqied, @Cariyaga, @HoratioVonBecker, @Radvic, @Twofold
Num votes: 5


Plan name: Jutsu Hazou: Whack-A-Mole Pinball
Voters: @Anqied, @HoratioVonBecker, @Radvic, @Twofold
Num votes: 4


Plan name: Training Keiko: Inheritor of Talky
Voters: @Anqied, @Bombastus, @Twofold
Num votes: 3


Plan name: Training Noburi: Field Medic Extraordinaire
Voters: @Anqied, @Bombastus, @Twofold
Num votes: 3


Plan name: Figure out our handlers
Voters: @1234qwerty, @Dark as Silver
Num votes: 2


Plan name: Listening to the Leaves
Voters: @Cariyaga, @Dictator4Hire
Num votes: 2


Plan name: Training Hazou: Advanced Flowcharts
Voters: @Anqied, @Twofold
Num votes: 2


Plan name: Armeggedon Initiative
Voters: @Dark as Silver
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Be the Leaf
Voters: @Dark as Silver
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Chaparral
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Covert Ops
Voters: @Radvic
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Jiraiya said that the Nine-Tail jinchuuriki is in the village, and that Tsunade is in Fire country. Gather more information, it's valuable outside of Konoha.
Voters: @Draconomial
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Justu Hazou: Mole in your Court
Voters: @Citrus
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Jutsu Hazou: A Very Serious Jutsu Proposal
Voters: @HoratioVonBecker
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Jutsu Plan: Sealing
Voters: @1234qwerty
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Keiko Reward: Chakra Blades and/or training to empower weapons with wind nature chakra
Voters: @Dictator4Hire
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Keiko Training Plan: Speak and Summon
Voters: @Dictator4Hire
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Keiko Training Plan: Speak, Summon, and SALES
Voters: @Dictator4Hire
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Kill yourselves, it's less painful than being caught as spies, tortured for information, and sent off to Mist.
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Subplan: Pull a Pandaa
Voters: @HoratioVonBecker
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Summon Shub-Niggurath, the Black Goat of the Woods with a Thousand Young
Voters: @Dark as Silver
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Village hidden in the crater
Voters: @Dark as Silver
Num votes: 1

Number of voters: 16
 
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I think we really need to to take a risk and trust our teammates here.
Agreed? I'm trusting our teammates to understand that our means of communication are compromised and to ask for sensible and useful rewards.
When Nobby finds out later that we want to replace him and have already invested time to train Keiko up on it, he will resent us for not asking for his opinion and being manipulative. Same thing with Keiko.
The thing is, it's not. Regardless of if Keiko is going to become the face and Noburi focus on medicine, they both need practice at these things to well utilize their unique skills (medicine and summons), so we don't say, "hah! We tricked you into doing what we want!", We have a genuine discussion with them about team roles later, when we have secure means of communication, and respect their decision then. Medicine and medical jutsu are important to Noburi regardless, and diplomacy is important for Keiko's summoning, so it's not like training these things requires that we have a face switch. That said, it makes mechanical sense for it to be so, but that's just because a summoner needs diplomacy in a way a medic does not.

EDIT: Also note that Keiko's training plan is contingent to having a discussion about it with her and Nobby.
That seems complicated.
Edit: fortunately, Keiko has a history of ignoring our training plans :p
Edit 2: clarification edits.
 
Last edited:
Location
The Deep Blue Sea
Also note that Keiko's training plan is contingent to having a discussion about it with her and Nobby.
Noburi's is contingent on him getting more medic training, and it doesn't sound like that's in the cards today. I'm willing to invest a day in social contacts and information gathering and putting off training slightly.
 
Location
The Deep Blue Sea
@Velorien I realize this is super duper late in the game and you probably won't see this until you get up to close the vote, but does the fact that we're voting in a jutsu plan mean Hazou is automatically spending his favor on jutsu...? @Thread did I miss discussion on this?
 
Location
Europe
Agreed? I'm trusting our teammates to understand that our means of communication are compromised and to ask for sensible and useful rewards.
I meant that you are not trusting them to not throw a fit. That's pretty telling and they will pick up on it later.

The thing is, it's not. Regardless of if Keiko is going to become the face and Noburi focus on medicine, they both need practice at these things to well utilize their unique skills (medicine and summons), so we don't say, "hah! We tricked you into doing what we want!", We have a genuine discussion with them about if they want to do that and respect their decision then. Noburi's still gonna need medicine, and Keiko's gonna need diplomacy.
If we go through with Keiko's training plan, she will be better Diplomancer than Nobby, and it will take a long time before Nobby can get enough XP to overcome that. Meaning we either have to use the lesser Diplomancer or sideline Nobby from those duties temporarily.

That seems complicated.
It's not complicated, it's been right there in the plan since the last time we voted it in.

[X] Training Keiko: Inheritor of Talky

Only go through with this training plan if we have successfully negotiated the swapping of diplomatic responsibilities with Keiko and Noburi.
Noburi's is contingent on him getting more medic training, and it doesn't sound like that's in the cards today. I'm willing to invest a day in social contacts and information gathering and putting off training slightly.
I think you both are overestimating the time we have until next mission.
 
Location
x3
IC we have every reason to trust Leaf's biosealing specialist medic :/
Not if we're properly paranoid. So far every biosealer we've met has been insane. We have every reason to suspect that Kabuto's incentives don't align with ours. This is a ninja village so at any time he's likely to be working on multiple difficult cases and determines how to spend that time based on the value that shinobi will have to leaf after successful treatment. We care significantly more about a living, civilian capability Akane than he would. He may even choose to prioritize significantly more dangerous treatments that stand a chance of her remaining a ninja than those that keep her alive. That may well be Akane's preference as well, but I haven't seen thread discussion along these lines.

That's not taking into account that contingencies for Akane's death are useful even if we trust Kabuto. If we think that preserving Akane's body for the chance to bring her back to life is not worth garnering leaf's ire, I haven't seen anybody express that either. Similarly, the chance that the pangolin jutsu might help Akane's treatment or recovery(it may well hurt it due to the -1 penalty die) seems worth discussing in character rather than not mentioning at all. If Akane does end up dying, I wouldn't feel right unless I expressed these ideas to the best of my ability, given the time I have available to devote to the quest.

[X] Jutsu Hazou: Whack-a-Mole Madness
@Velorien I realize this is super duper late in the game and you probably won't see this until you get up to close the vote, but does the fact that we're voting in a jutsu plan mean Hazou is automatically spending his favor on jutsu...? @Thread did I miss discussion on this?
I'm not sure either. @Twofold Could you add in that we aren't necessarily spending the favor on ninjutsu, just seeing what's available before deciding? I know the current winning plan isn't yours, but it references yours directly.
 
Last edited:
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I meant that you are not trusting them to not throw a fit. That's pretty telling and they will pick up on it later.
To be fair, them throwing a fit is not really my main concern (though it is part of one). My concern is operational secrecy. Right now, we're awful at keeping information from our enemies. This results in things like Zabuza finding out we're alive and chasing us, and Leaf getting levitating defenses. The only way to actually stop doing that is to start being serious about secrecy in our organization. That includes hiding who does the talking. If our enemies know Keiko is going to be our talker, they have an advantage. If they know Hazou is our deciever, they have an advantage. We need to minimize the information we give to our enemies, and we need to have started yesterday. Starting today is better than starting tomorrow though. I don't really expect Noburi or Keiko to have drama affect their performance that much, though it is a concern. The more major issue is simply keeping as much information as possible from our enemies.

If we go through with Keiko's training plan, she will be better Diplomancer than Nobby, and it will take a long time before Nobby can get enough XP to overcome that. Meaning we either have to use the lesser Diplomancer or sideline Nobby from those duties temporarily.
Mechanically, I agree with you. That said, it's not like Noburi's going to get worse at diplomancing by doing medical training, and I really think he should do medical training, not diplomacy work right now. And diplomacy is something Keiko needs as a summoner. In all likelihood, we'll just be gaining a second diplomancer we can use. Who represents our group can be a different discussion.

It's not complicated, it's been right there in the plan since the last time we voted it in.
I agree it's clear. It's just complicated.

I think you both are overestimating the time we have until next mission.
Pretty sure we won't get a mission until Akane recovers or decides to leave us, which is ~ a month? Thus one day of training time is not a huge percentage. Also, regardless, I doubt the QMs will let us train a lot in that day, unless we're intensly only doing that thing.
 
Location
Europe
I'm not sure either. @Twofold Could you add in that we aren't necessarily spending the favor on ninjutsu, just seeing what's available before deciding? I know the current winning plan isn't yours, but it references yours directly.
Hazou's jutsu shouldn't cost us any current favor since Jiraya promised it to us earlier. That being said, we are choosing a jutsu that Jiraya makes the effort to find (read: QMs make the effort to create) and not just getting a list of options. I think @Velorien was pretty clear about that.

I'm under the impression that the action plan will make the actual decision whether we get jutsu or not, but I added the following line to the jutsu plan just in case:
This is Hazou's jutsu preference list assuming that the winning action plan has him acquire a new jutsu.

My concern is operational secrecy. Right now, we're awful at keeping information from our enemies. This results in things like Zabuza finding out we're alive and chasing us, and Leaf getting levitating defenses. The only way to actually stop doing that is to start being serious about secrecy in our organization. That includes hiding who does the talking. If our enemies know Keiko is going to be our talker, they have an advantage. If they know Hazou is our deciever, they have an advantage. We need to minimize the information we give to our enemies, and we need to have started yesterday. Starting today is better than starting tomorrow though. I don't really expect Noburi or Keiko to have drama affect their performance that much, though it is a concern. The more major issue is simply keeping information from our enemies.
True, but I doubt that we are actually going to be able to keep the social roles a secret from people who are actively spying on us. Our enemies will figure them out first time they interact with us, or observe us interacting with anyone. In this case, we are buying false secrecy at the cost of team unity and that is not a good trade in my opinion.

Mechanically, I agree with you. That said, it's not like Noburi's going to get worse at diplomancing by doing medical training, and I really think he should do medical training, not diplomacy work right now. And diplomacy is something Keiko needs as a summoner. In all likelihood, we'll just be gaining a second diplomancer we can use. Who represents our group can be a different discussion.
Noburi is not going to get worse, it's just that he is not good enough for our current challenges as he is. He needs to spend XP on Diplomacy if he is going to do stuff related to it, but with medical training he is not going to afford to. Especially since we need to spruce up our basic ninja skills soon.

This means we kinda have to sideline him, and with the way we are pushing for the training plans, he is not going to get the chance to disagree with us.

That being said, if we are not discussing rewards in the next update Nobby is not really getting the medical training yet either. I guess we can opt to spend less XP on medical in case we can't work out Keiko into the Diplomancer role.

Pretty sure we won't get a mission until Akane recovers or decides to leave us, which is ~ a month? Thus one day of training time is not a huge percentage. Also, regardless, I doubt the QMs will let us train a lot in that day, unless we're intensly only doing that thing.
With Jiraya pulling us to Leaf and insisting that Nobby gets his barrel fixed, I can't help to think that we are going to see a mission really soon. I would not be surprised if we are not going to get any time outside Konoha for training and team discussions before the next mission hits.


@eaglejarl @Velorien I confess that I've been very confused about what we are voting about for this round. Maybe provide more guidance and explicit directions next time?
 
Last edited:
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Hazou of Earth(?), you have the ability to inspire great Youth. Welcome to the Green Spandex Corps.
I mean, if you go by philosophy, the ideas of YOUTH are probably the closest to altruism in this world? So we're basically just targeting our strongest potential ally by signaling ourself as one of them?

Edit: and think of how happy Akane would be to see us in a YOUTHSUIT
 
Last edited:
Location
The Deep Blue Sea
If y'all have actually voted this in when I wake up, I will find you all, tie your tongues around your snouts, and set them on fire. Good day to you.
 
Top