Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

[foamy]

alert A recent update and set of votes concerning what appears to be a eugenics program aimed at a group of women has been brought to our attention. Because of the sheer quantity of material posted here it is going to take us some time to properly examine things.

 

[foamy]

sufficient velocity and dehumanization
If there's anything six thousand and (almost) fifty pages of writing and commentary in this thread proves it's that this is a group that likes to communicate, so I would like to take this time to explain why we have an issue and what we're doing about it.

Our concern arises from the Chapter 271 update and the discussion that resulted from it. This update, among other things, had a proposal involving, effectively, a eugenic breeding program and the sale of the resulting children for future considerations.

Sufficient Velocity is not a neutral platform on issues like human trafficking, racism, sexism, and other evils. We have rules prohibiting their support and, in particular, we have a rule prohibiting something that usually rides alongside it: Dehumanization. That rule is Rule 2, "Don't be Hateful". We expect and require that our users treat any person with the basic respect of recognizing them as a person. Some people have issues with that even with regard to persons who exist in reality; they usually wind up promptly banned.

But Rule 2, and this often comes as a surprise to people, also covers fictional characters. The reasons for this run back to Sufficient Velocity's founding; originally, to prevent things like revenge fantasies from taking hold. Even directed against fictional persons, the language used in them was often the same hateful language that has been against many real people, including many of our users, and the central idea -- that the person you wish to suffer isn't really a person or worth anything -- is the same. The rules, in various versions, have been drafted to keep that language and that mindset off Sufficient Velocity.

Rule 2s intersection with narrative fiction, such as User Fiction or Quests, becomes more complex. We do not wish to eliminate the ability to write about evil things and it is possible -- common, even -- for a story to include elements that an author does not approve of, either neutrally, as backdrop, or as something which is set up as an antagonist or that the story is used to oppose in reality. Thinking Saving Private Ryan is an endorsement of Naziism would be very peculiar, for example. Or the classic satirical piece, A Modest Proposal, also comes to mind.

So when we have to look at a Rule 2 issue in a story we ask ourselves what the intent behind it was; if the material which Rule 2 would cover is being cast in an approving light. This is purely a decision of the author's. They are God, a fourth-dimensional entity who can alter any event and any rule at any time, including before they thought of it. No word appears on a page without an author's decision to put it there, no matter if it's narration or spoken by a character. No frame appears in a movie without a director's decision to include it. They are the ones responsible.

In this case, we have spoken with @eaglejarl, @OliWhail, and @Velorien, and reviewed the updates and thread discussion. Our conclusion is that the child-sale proposal was, in fact, specifically intended to horrify and offer a moral challenge to the players, and was given to the mouth of a mentally unstable character in order to reinforce that aspect.

We have discussed this heavily, and concluded that we will not be taking action against the story or its writers.

But a quest involves more than just its authors...

player problems
... and unfortunately, a number of players ran into problems of their own. We have issued a number of infractions, but the common thread throughout almost all of them is that the players in question were treating the women and children involved in the proposal as if they were... vending machines. Insert nickle, get baby, flip for profit. That will not fly; I wish to be very clear here: if you want to talk how you'd treat women like 'brood mares', you can do it not on our website.

We do not like descending on someone's creative work with fire, sword, and cross. If nothing else, it's a great deal of work, but in addition, it is discouraging and disruptive to the people involved, both as authors and as readers. QMs are in a prime position to shape their thread's culture and point their players away from these kinds of troubles, which works out best for everybody. We give significant respect to author requests for thread management, such as booting a trouble-making player, for this reason. They are almost certainly the best-placed and best-informed person available... provided they have an understanding of what the rules stop and, more importantly, why they stop it.

This was also something we spoke to the co-QMs about. From that conversation, they were discomfited as well by some of the posts their players have made, and understand the nature and purpose of Rule 2. They have said they will be taking a more active stance towards preventing this particular failure mode from happening again. Hopefully, the infraction points we're handing out to various people will help drive the point home, too. I don't think anybody here has a desire to see a repeat.

infraction time
@Twinnstars has been infracted for 50 points under Rule 2, "Don't be Hateful": Do not try to justify treating people like chattel.
@KaGoGoGadgetMe has been infracted for 50 points under Rule 2, "Don't be Hateful": Do not advocate for sociopathic decision-making.
@Byzantine279 has been infracted for 25 points under Rule 2, "Don't be Hateful": Do not diminish the impact of human trafficking.
@No-one of Importance has been infracted for 25 points under Rule 2,"Don't be Hateful": Do not treat people like Pokemon.
@JulieK has been infracted for 25 points under Rule 2, "Don't be Hateful": Do not treat people like Pokemon. (*Rescinded. Post was misunderstood)
@huhYeahGoodPoint has been infracted for 25 points under Rule 2, "Don't be Hateful": Do not treat women as objects to be passed around.

@Shadowwarp has been infracted for 25 points under Rule 6, "Acceptable Content": Do not talk about how you'd encourage teenage as many teenage pregnancies as possible.
@Rafin has been infracted for 25 points under Rule 6, "Acceptable Content": Do not use terms like 'whoring out' in reference to teenagers.

In addition, all of the above have been threadbanned for one week.

thread reopened Thread reopened. If you would like to read our Rules, they may be found here. Please note that debating a Staff decision in the thread where it was made is considered a breach of Rule 5, "Don't Make It Harder To Do Our Jobs"; we have strong processes to allow for the appeal of individual actions or to discuss things in the Staff Communication forum without further disrupting this thread.

 

[Inferno Vulpix]

Well, glad that's all sorted out without (much) problems. Much thanks for the reasonable handling of such a tense situation!

So, where are we standing with respect to update and plan schedule? I confess I don't remember too well what the QM stated intent was back when this started.

 

[Oneiros]

Well, glad that's all sorted out without (much) problems. Much thanks for the reasonable handling of such a tense situation!

So, where are we standing with respect to update and plan schedule? I confess I don't remember too well what the QM stated intent was back when this started.

Click to shrink...

Ej is at a conference right now so at best I would expect an interlude tomorrow or Monday. With regular updates after that

 

[Rihaku]

I'm glad the threadlock went away, now we can talk about the really serious issues.

Xenforo 2 changed the default font. This cannot stand.

Away to QQ, my brothers. Away!!

 

[faflec]

faflec.reaction

 

[firestorm440]

You know, the interesting thing about this whole issue is that we have gotten official confirmation that Mari is, in fact, mentally unstable.

 

[Cariyaga]

You know, the interesting thing about this whole issue is that we have gotten official confirmation that Mari is, in fact, mentally unstable.

Click to shrink...

All according to Shikaku.

 

[Ipsos Custodes]

You know, the interesting thing about this whole issue is that we have gotten official confirmation that Mari is, in fact, mentally unstable.

Click to shrink...

I was thinking about that, but it could have also been a QM spin to get the quest out of trouble.

If so, foamy (specifically not being pinged) lost a deception roll.

 

[Dissonance]

Back in business, I guess.

[X] Make a summoning contract with the R2 denizens.

 

[firestorm440]

All according to Shikaku.

Click to shrink...

SHIKAKU: How does this chunin always seem to know exactly what's going on?
VIHH: busy keeping the mods busy
SHIKAKU: ...
SHIKAKU: looks around the Demon King's belly for a set of rules posted anywhere to violate

 

[Falconis]

I must admit some measure of relief that we will (presumably) not be continuing along that route.
As stated, I had (and have) a number of moral and ethical reservations about this deal. There's only so far I can stretch those for the sake of a thought experiment over an extended period, and I would have disliked having to drop the quest after such a long time following it.

I was quite worried (given the type of objections from others [i.e. Not Hazo or Mari] in universe did not cover the ethical quandry) that this route was unavoidable and I probably would have just unwatched immediately if at least the veto change didn't go through.

That said I did very little to avert said outcome (other than putting forward said veto) and I thank those that did put in the elbow grease; The quest potentially still lives thanks to your efforts.

 

[Ipsos Custodes]

I can't figure out how to get the tally to work from mobile with Xenforo 2 - but I'm wondering if the last vote would have different results if the now temporarily banned and infracted voters hadn't been able to vote at the time...

There's a premise called unjust enrichment that people shouldn't benefit from their misdeeds, and if we view the above modpost as a declaration of misdeeds then perhaps we should be requesting that the results be changed accordingly.

That being said, I can't tell if the results would have been different since I couldn't get the tally to, well, tally.

 

[traverseda]

Hoping I didn't screw up the tally. I disagree with your premise, but the leading vote was ahead by exactly 8 votes, not all of the infracted voted, so it wouldn't have made a difference.

 

[firestorm440]

I can't figure out how to get the tally to work from mobile with Xenforo 2 - but I'm wondering if the last vote would have different results if the now temporarily banned and infracted voters hadn't been able to vote at the time...

There's a premise called unjust enrichment that people shouldn't benefit from their misdeeds, and if we view the above modpost as a declaration of misdeeds then perhaps we should be requesting that the results be changed accordingly.

That being said, I can't tell if the results would have been different since I couldn't get the tally to, well, tally.

Click to shrink...

I strongly object to the idea that the mod action should, in fact, change the outcome of the vote. Note that the specific action they were advocating Hazo take has not, in fact, been ruled misconduct by the mods.

 

[Lailoken]

-and sociopaths remain the only acceptably persecutable minority.

The site authorities have made it clear that anything written on it has to, at the end of the day, boil down to a morally affirmiming children's tale about puppies and kittens. That is fundamentally incompatable with a neutral simulationist, or even just intellectually rigorous approach to narrative. It's time to talk about alternative platforms.

Suggestions?

I can't figure out how to get the tally to work from mobile with Xenforo 2 - but I'm wondering if the last vote would have different results if the now temporarily banned and infracted voters hadn't been able to vote at the time...

There's a premise called unjust enrichment that people shouldn't benefit from their misdeeds, and if we view the above modpost as a declaration of misdeeds then perhaps we should be requesting that the results be changed accordingly.

That being said, I can't tell if the results would have been different since I couldn't get the tally to, well, tally.

Click to shrink...

This would have merit if the standards and judgement of the authorities were sound. They are not.

 

[firestorm440]

-and sociopaths remain the only acceptably persecutable minority.

The site authorities have made it clear that anything written on it has to, at the end of the day, boil down to puppies and kittens. That is fundamentally incompatable with a neutral simulationist approach to narrative. It's time to talk about alternative platforms.

Suggestions?





This would have merit if the judgement and standards of the authorities were correct. They are not.

Click to shrink...

I agree with some of your points and disagree with others. However, in the interests of keeping this thread open, I do suggest we follow the staff post and take any discussion to the forum-designated thread or otherwise off this thread.

 

[traverseda]

-and sociopaths remain the only acceptably persecutable minority.

The site authorities have made it clear that anything written on it has to, at the end of the day, boil down to puppies and kittens. That is fundamentally incompatable with a neutral simulationist, or even just intellectually rigorous approach to narrative. It's time to talk about alternative platforms.

Suggestions?





This would have merit if the standards and judgement of the authorities were sound. They are not.

Click to shrink...

Feel free to make a post to discuss that, and do include a link to it here, but actually discussing it here will cause problems. Believe me, we've gone over that point a lot on the discord channel.

Better yet don't discuss it at all on a platform that they have ultimate control over.

 

[Ipsos Custodes]

Hoping I didn't screw up the tally. I disagree with your premise, but the leading vote was ahead by exactly 8 votes, not all of the infracted voted, so it wouldn't have made a difference.

Click to shrink...

I strongly object to the idea that the mod action should, in fact, change the outcome of the vote. Note that the specific action they were advocating Hazo take has not, in fact, been ruled misconduct by the mods.

Click to shrink...

It's a moot point anyway, but seemed worth mentioning conceptually.

 

[charlesrwest]

If I may ask, could I get a link for the discord? One of the most irritating things about the threadlock was that it eliminated the communication channel I would normally look at to see what was going on.

 

[faflec]

If I may ask, could I get a link for the discord? One of the most irritating things about the threadlock was that it eliminated the communication channel I would normally look at to see what was going on.

Click to shrink...

See my sig.

 

[traverseda]

Please note that many of the sufficient-velocity staff members involved in this are lurking the discord.

 

[faflec]

Please note that many of the sufficient-velocity staff members involved in this are lurking the discord.

Click to shrink...

Maybe they can read the story and get involved in planning

 

[FieryStarVictory]

If I may ask, could I get a link for the discord? One of the most irritating things about the threadlock was that it eliminated the communication channel I would normally look at to see what was going on.

Click to shrink...

It's just a channel on the r/rational discord.

 

[Roadie]

The site authorities have made it clear that anything written on it has to, at the end of the day, boil down to a morally affirmiming children's tale about puppies and kittens. That is fundamentally incompatable with a neutral simulationist, or even just intellectually rigorous approach to narrative. It's time to talk about alternative platforms.

Click to shrink...

I find it kind of gross that you're treating this like persecution when it's already been noted by the quest writers that this was supposed to be a moral dilemma about balancing realpolitik needs with basic moral imperatives, and mod intervention only happened because a bunch of people decided to instead go all-in on treating the situation like a really fucked-up game of The Sims.

And, hell, even from a purely sociopathic 'rationalist' perspective there are obvious reasons not to treat people like cattle, starting with 'that's how you get stabbed in your sleep by an unhappy parent or child'.