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Politics What do you (we) want out of left politics?

Discussion in 'Current Affairs' started by FBH, Dec 16, 2016.

  1. Cetashwayo

    Cetashwayo Lord of Ten Thousand Years Magistrate On Leave Commission Artist

    Location:
    Across the Horizon
    So you don't have any.
     
  2. Aaron Fox

    Aaron Fox Personally, why not?

    Thing is we're already talking long-term here... which isn't something that you can simply go A, B, and C with. ... and that is the problem with the current political climate really, long-term has been more or less vilified by the system. Much of the anti-gun proponents have hailed from the urban centers when much of the rural is more or less still some resemblance of a death world. For many farming is a key industry despite world trade being a thing, and taking the subsidies upsets them (and the corps that run them) as well. There are many factors in this situation that can easily meld together into a heap of trouble if not stopped thoroughly enough. Hence why I said it'll start small at first before growing out of control.

    If you more or less make it look like the rural can't influence politics, then you'll just up the chances of violence in the mid and long run.
     
  3. Cetashwayo

    Cetashwayo Lord of Ten Thousand Years Magistrate On Leave Commission Artist

    Location:
    Across the Horizon
    As of 2010 only 1.6% of the US population is involved in agriculture.
     
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  4. Zap Rowsdower

    Zap Rowsdower Ex-cultist vagrant

    And from what I've read much (if not most) of it is large agribusiness and employees tehreof, not traditional family farms of the sort usually thought. Particularly in the context of who gets government "helping farmers" aid.
     
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  5. Ford Prefect

    Ford Prefect What is Project Zohar? Director

    Warning @Aaron Fox has been removed from the thread. Aaron, your standards of debate are through the floor, and rating an opposing argument funny isn't a good look to boot.
     
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  6. I think an argument can be made that neglect of the welfare of rural areas was a factor in Donald Trump's election.

    When a significant part of the population thinks they're getting railroaded that is a destabilizing factor. Their resentment might not manifest as violent revolution, but violent revolutions aren't the only bad thing that can happen to a democracy.
     
  7. Avernus

    Avernus Abomination

    Since they elected the side that was behind that neglect, that's not an argument for helping them; rather the opposite.
     
  8. EarthScorpion

    EarthScorpion CR of the Thrown

    Ah, but are you counting undocumented immigrants there for the purposes of population (though of course they don't get to vote)?
     
  9. Triggerhappy

    Triggerhappy Hard Knocks University

    Location:
    SoCal
    I'm tired so correct me if I'm wrong, but why does it matter strictly if they're connected to the agriculture industry. The rural population that think they've been shafted is more than just farmers
     
  10. Avernus

    Avernus Abomination

    This particular tangent started with talk about cutting farming subsidies starting an insurgency; thus, farmers.
     
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  11. Cutting farming subsidies is very unlikely to happen in the United States. Even leaving aside the tradeoffs associated with food security, agri subsidies make up a fairly small part of the federal budget and not a good target for the Democrats, even if they were in the business of cutting government programs. Freeing up 20B per year really isn't worth the political fallout, and Dems don't have the power to do it anyway.
     
  12. Avernus

    Avernus Abomination

    I wasn't the one who brought it up.
     
  13. Here's the thing. Direct election of Senators didn't fix all possible problems, and it wasn't the panacea that people dreamed of...but have you seen state legislatures? They tend to be an amateur hour shit-show, and letting *them* pick who becomes a Senator, especially since turnout for random minor state rep elections tends to be bottom of the barrel, is not a good idea, at least in our modern world, however well it might have worked out in the distant past.

    Now, the Progressives were wrong to think that it'd somehow save democracy and apple pie and freedom, but it wasn't actually a bad decision at all.
     
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  14. Hakazin

    Hakazin

    Location:
    Boston
    Or an argument in favor of Trump actually being competent in some ways. I mean, seriously, you have to admit that getting yourself, a member of the 1%, elected on the policy of "Fuck the establishment and everything related to it" by disenfranchised, out of work rural voters takes a lot of charisma.
     
  15. Avernus

    Avernus Abomination

    Trump is pretty much charisma free; his appeal is limited to his extremely gullible base and that's about it.

    It takes being a con artist, which is basically only skill. And he was working on an audience that has a long history of being very gullible and of electing their own enemies into power.
     
  16. This is ridiculous. Trump is many things and you may not like him but he is not charisma free. He has a hell of a lot of personal charisma. Otherwise his skills as a con artist would be totally useless. You don't pull a con unless you can make the person like and trust you and that's what charisma is.

    Don't underestimate the opponent. That's what everyone in this election did and look where it got us.
     
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  17. Avernus

    Avernus Abomination

    No; you don't need charisma, you just need to pick your audience. And he picked an audience that has been groomed by the Republicans for decades to be as gullible as possible. Trump just hijacked that.

    Trump is repulsive, not charismatic. That's why he can't persuade anybody outside of that gullible minority. That's why he isn't remotely persuasive to anybody not a True Believer.

    The problem was much more overestimating both the American people and the Republican party.
     
  18. biodude711

    biodude711 Enterprise-chan!

    To you, or did you forget the fact that charisma is incredibly subjective, and that what is considered to be charismatic to one group may be considered to be repulsive to another?
     
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  19. Avernus

    Avernus Abomination

    He's repulsive to most people.
     
  20. biodude711

    biodude711 Enterprise-chan!

    That's not exactly disproving my point about charisma being subjective.
     
  21. I've always thought of Trump as a sort of natural showman and entertainer. I remember watching the first season of Apprentice and thinking it was pretty fun. I certainly think he's repulsive, but he does have a certain way with words and with an audience, even if he's mostly an incoherent rambler, he has a style to it.

    Also, I suspect most Republicans pulled the lever for Trump while holding their nose. After all, they don't like Clinton, who is associated with Obama and ran on a platform of economic leftism. So they pulled the lever for the Republican nominee, as they always do.
     
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  22. Avernus

    Avernus Abomination

    If it's that subjective, then it doesn't actually exist. If everyone but a small minority of humanity find somebody repulsive, then claiming he has "charisma" makes no sense. By that logic, anyone who isn't universally hated has charisma; which renders the word essentially meaningless.
     
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  23. Hakazin

    Hakazin

    Location:
    Boston
    Define most. Without insults.
     
  24. Avernus

    Avernus Abomination

    Most of humanity that are aware of him, and aren't his supporters.
     
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