With This Ring (Young Justice SI) (Thread Thirteen)

[Count Rushcore]

emphasis me.
I really need a wiggling hand of half agree half disagree button. Yes all those things are true, however there is no guarantee the brain has been changed. for instance if his brain had been altered to, female output lets call it, he would be fine with being a she. alternately the hormone and neuroreceptor changes might be slow acting and he will slowly become brainwashed in the most literal sense as the 'you are male' chemical reactions are overwritten by 'you are female' chemical reactions wash them out.

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Hormones control mood, how and what we think (to a certain degree, at least). I think we can all agree that there are at the very least slight differences in the hormone make-ups and levels between individuals, specifically between people who express a "male" habitus and those that express a female habitus? Suddenly changing that will lead to a sudden change in hormone-levels, which will have some influence on your behavior. And I don't mean things like Gender-identity, but more stuff like mood, emotions.

Doesn't matter if the brain is the same or not, if the environment it is floating around in, is a different one.

I guess we could argue how significant the changes enacted upon the brain by its new environment are.

 

[Gore17]

I mean, it's not definite. Typically yes, but there are absolutely people for whom changing their body would change their gender identity.

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Well, yes, as could there have been a case of them being in the closet for such things, but they've shown no indication, nor stated they wish to be referred to differently. I did debate bringing this up but, well...

He still seems to identified as a male, and I checked the original comic. He never stops being a he there, so it's likely he won't stop here either.

More likely it would mean that eventually they will be able to adapt to being female; as opposed to somebody with a brain/body mismatch who just can't.

Which is a problem with OL trying to change them back with the ring; OL probably wouldn't be able to give them a male brain, much less one that exactly matched their old one; which in the long run would cause psychological disturbances.

There's also the Earth 16 specific problem of what if any effect the soul has on things.

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Read the original as mentioned. No real change to personality or gender, other then an increased awareness of the shit women go through and their contributions to that prompting reform.

 

[Sceptic]

I think we can all agree[...]

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Wow, it's almost like you haven't even been reading the discussion on this story.

 

[Count Rushcore]

Wow, it's almost like you haven't even been reading the discussion on this story.

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I THOUGHT I did. Guess I missed some stuff.

 

[u63r]

So, found a summary of the story with Joe Hamill: Shocking Suzi (Character) - Comic Vine

Edit: And it got worse for them, as they died at the hands of a serial killer searching for the dial.

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Weird. I didn't see that last part in the summaries I read.

Aside from the whole "horrible death" and "breakup with the girlfriend" and "his sexuality doesn't actually change" parts , his plotline sounds exactly like a transgender transformation fetish story you'd see on DeviantArt.

I guess TV Tropes would call it a Deconstruction?

 

[Pinklestia]

Find a weird device IN A WORLD FULL IF SUPER VILLAINS and play with it like if you were a five year old?

Man, that is stupid.

 

[Happy Hampster]

Find a weird device IN A WORLD FULL IF SUPER VILLAINS and play with it like if you were a five year old?

Man, that is stupid.

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he thought it was a toy.

 

[Pinklestia]

he thought it was a toy.

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A lot of dead people that died thanks to the Joker or other supervillains also thought the same thing when they found a "toy". Some versions of Toyman love doing that.

Not to mention that being a toy doesn't make something safe. More so if you find it abandoned and so it might be damaged. That is also true in real life.

 

[Mr Zoat]

When you suddenly don't know how to control your own bladder because you no longer have a penis a normal reaction would be to freak the fuck out.

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Have to admit, I had been assuming that the backroom plumbing for that was more or less the same.

Zoat, cmon. We just got past the religion debate and then you bring in a gender argument?

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There was this video I saw on YouTube a few years ago, about the psychologist who came with the term 'gender' and what a total shit he was. Since then, I've tried to avoid the term.

He. Still a dude.

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While the SI will persist in referring to Mr Hamill in the feminine until he changes back, you will note that Diana and Beryl refer to Mr Hamill in the masculine.

 

[Happy Hampster]

Have to admit, I had been assuming that the backroom plumbing for that was more or less the same.

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nope even the nerve map might differ between male and female twins the neurological control will certainly differ because of the length of the urethra and the rearrangement of certain tensor muscles.
Edit

While the SI will persist in referring to Mr Hamill in the feminine until he changes back, you will note that Diana and Beryl refer to Mr Hamill in the masculine.

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is paul being intentionally rude?

 

[Mr Zoat]

is paul being intentionally rude?

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"If you're still a man, why have you come to us when there's clearly no problem?"

 

[Pinklestia]

Have to admit, I had been assuming that the backroom plumbing for that was more or less the same.

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Sadly, Women can't hold urine for as long as men. The positive is, holding urine a lot increases the chances of blader cancer on men so she no longer has to worry about that particular type of cancer.

Women tend to live on average; ten years more than men. They also need less oxigen to breathe. And being smaller means is easier to move around, get things from under furniture and so on.

What's gonna suck a lot is the pay disparity if she ends stuck as female and has to get a job.

 

[Happy Hampster]

"If you're still a man, why have you come to us when there's clearly no problem?"

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so yes then good to know.

 

[Mr Zoat]

What's gonna suck a lot is the pay disparity if she ends stuck as female and has to get a job.

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I think she canonically made more money as a stripper than he made as a construction worker.

And I'm pretty sure that paying women less than men for doing the same job is illegal.

so yes then good to know.

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Kind of. Mr Hamill isn't a transsexual. He didn't have any desire to be a sex other than what he was born as. Nor does she have much desire to argue pronouns. She's far more bothered by the physical reality of the transformation.

 

[Happy Hampster]

I think she canonically made more money as a stripper than he made as a construction worker.

And I'm pretty sure that paying women less than men for doing the same job is illegal.

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it is and it has been for years and assholes still do.

 

[Pinklestia]

And I'm pretty sure that paying women less than men for doing the same job is illegal.

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Yet it still happens, a lot.

Oracle systematically underpaid thousands of women, lawsuit says

And honesty this time she got the help of the League, why would she go to be a stripper?

 

[Happy Hampster]

Yet it still happens, a lot.

Oracle systematically underpaid thousands of women, lawsuit says

And honesty this time she got the help of the League, why would she go to be a stripper?

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lots and lots of money.

 

[Senevri]

I seem to recall the dial only lasts an hour. Does OL not recall/know that? How long has it been?

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I recall the issue.

Spoiler

It was never explained why the transformation stuck, although the powers faded over time. Perhaps the dial needed to be close by to undo?

 

[Senevri]

There was this video I saw on YouTube a few years ago, about the psychologist who came with the term 'gender' and what a total shit he was. Since then, I've tried to avoid the term.

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Ah. If x is a bad person, then don't use thing invented by x? A very emotional decision to make.

Insistent pronouns are only a problem if they are a problem, and definitely signal that a person using them believes themselves to be in the right. Cueing on visual appearance is at least easy to be consistent with.

The argument for preferred pronouns could be condensed to, if you claim your name is, say, Paul, and I call you Steve, then I'm being an ass.

 

[Pinklestia]

I recall the issue.

Spoiler

It was never explained why the transformation stuck, although the powers faded over time. Perhaps the dial needed to be close by to undo?

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She lost her powers? No wonder she got killed them.

I think there was a version of the Dial were the transformation lasted until it was undone, I think it was the first one. Otherwise the whole split in evil and good halves wouldn't have lasted so long.

Maybe this Dial is a defective copy.

 

[jcw3]

Kind of. Mr Hamill isn't a transsexual. He didn't have any desire to be a sex other than what he was born as. Nor does she have much desire to argue pronouns. She's far more bothered by the physical reality of the transformation.

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So... you refer to him with male pronouns, otherwise you're being a complete asshole. This is genuinely disrespectful and makes me think less of the Illustres and Beryl.

 

[nobodez]

Kind of. Mr Hamill isn't a transsexual. He didn't have any desire to be a sex other than what he was born as. Nor does she have much desire to argue pronouns. She's far more bothered by the physical reality of the transformation.

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IIRC, the proper tense on that statement should be “Mr, Hamill wasn’t a transsexual “, since by your explanation they now are desiring to return to their precious physical sex from their current physical sex, which is, accepting for the circumstances, a literal definition of transsexual.

 

[V01DRei]

So, is it too much to expect that this situation caused Himie to find the Scarab?

 

[Happy Hampster]

IIRC, the proper tense on that statement should be “Mr, Hamill wasn’t a transsexual “, since by your explanation they now are desiring to return to their precious physical sex from their current physical sex, which is, accepting for the circumstances, a literal definition of transsexual.

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previous. sorry adding words adding words adding words. but yeah he is still a he in mind. I mean this is a fairly obvious case of literally being the wrong gender no matter what definition you use.

 

[Gore17]

Weird. I didn't see that last part in the summaries I read.

Aside from the whole "horrible death" and "breakup with the girlfriend" and "his sexuality doesn't actually change" parts , his plotline sounds exactly like a transgender transformation fetish story you'd see on DeviantArt.

I guess TV Tropes would call it a Deconstruction?

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Sorry, that was based on an inaccurate summary I found. It is implied he was killed: the serial killer had the ability to sense previous users. They would go to a location/city, kill and/or recruit all the previous users, then head to the next area. Since Joe lived in Gotham, and Gotham was the first place they hit, and they weren't seen with the killer, it's pretty likely they were killed.

There was this video I saw on YouTube a few years ago, about the psychologist who came with the term 'gender' and what a total shit he was. Since then, I've tried to avoid the term.

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Oh? Do tell?

Also, regardless of whether it originated from a tainted source, it serves a use.

While the SI will persist in referring to Mr Hamill in the feminine until he changes back, you will note that Diana and Beryl refer to Mr Hamill in the masculine.

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"If you're still a man, why have you come to us when there's clearly no problem?"

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...Is this a criticism of your past self, or an effect of his "enlightenment" not causing him to understand?

I think she canonically made more money as a stripper than he made as a construction worker.

And I'm pretty sure that paying women less than men for doing the same job is illegal.

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For the first statement, doubtful. It's noted they don't do lap-dances, which has severely curtailed the amount they get, as has losing the ability to shoot lightning, with the owner even encouraging them by saying "you could use them." Definitely implying they're in a not-so-great situation financially.

As for the second....
About as close as I can get to my reaction. Only with less amusement.